#38 - Delivery > Content w/ Jackie Lamport

Jackie

into that and I was doing that as the host and producer and like basically it was a one and a half person team. had somebody part-time that was helping me as well, but it was mostly just me. And I did that for a year, got really burnt out and it was like, you know, I like this podcasting thing, but I think I got to take a break from news. So I switched to lower street, which is branded podcasting. And I've been doing that for about four years now. And it's been really, really cool to just get.

into the more technical media side as opposed to just news. Yeah, it's I really like it.

Jeff Albaum

And I think one of the coolest things about your story is like you just you're sharing the off air that like you don't care about your title at work. And if anyone follows you on LinkedIn or Instagram, like they see all your stuff that you're doing. It's like you do everything. So you're all over the place. Your content is amazing.

Jackie

ECH

Yeah.

Sorry, there's like the slightest bit of a lag and I will make up for it with allowing you a second to talk, but there is a slight lag I can hear.

Jeff Albaum

Sweet. Okay. Thank you. should come across or it should be fine in like, once it uploads, sometimes it feels laggy when you're recording, but then once it uploads, it feels like it's better for some reason. I don't know why.

Jackie

Yeah, yeah, we'll see. Yeah. But yeah, don't particularly care about title because to me it's like I'm gonna do what I would like to do anyway, what I'm allowed to do. And I'll always push that. So it's hard to even like have a title because I'm always like, now I wanna try this thing. And they're like, yeah, go for it. It's like that doesn't technically fit like my scope, which is actually a conversation that we have a lot with my COO.

Jeff Albaum

Okay.

Jackie

It's like, how do we make my role have a scope? But I just like doing a lot of stuff and I have a lot of ideas and I want to involve myself in too many things.

Jeff Albaum

It's so cool. And like you always say like, yeah, like I like saying yes to stuff. Like I say yes to things.

Jackie

Yeah, yeah, I think I say yes to too much. But yeah, yeah.

Jeff Albaum

What's, can you share like something that you recently did? You're like, like, I think this would be cool. So like, I'm going to go build it out or like, I'm going go do it.

Jackie

Sorry, I was like really interested in just recording videos for our company that were about like the setup and like all that kind of stuff in like the technical side of podcasting and then like a lot of the thought leadership stuff. I will just kind of be like, look, I'm going to spend my day and I'm going to make this right now and then I'll pass it off to you guys and we can do stuff with it. I've done that for I've written like very, very long

like strategy documents and stuff too, where I'm just like, listen, I'm gonna, I have a lot to say or do right now. I'm just gonna do it and then we can figure out what we wanna do with it. But yeah, I think I'm a kind of, I'm I'm biased to action. I think that if you wait to, or you try to plan too much or whatever it is, you don't always do the thing that you're trying to do or you think you're gonna do. I think if you have an urge to do something, do it in the moment, which is pretty much what I do.

And then if you execute on it, then usually you can make something of it. And that's better than not doing anything and trying to plan to do the perfect thing.

Jeff Albaum

what percentage of the stuff that you do do you end up using versus like, like, okay, can't use that. So like, just move on to the next thing.

Jackie

I would say that I write a lot more than we actually use. So I've written like a lot of different essays and very long, very, very long articles that I don't always end up using because I don't necessarily like feel like they're worth the polishing time. Maybe, I don't know, maybe I'm just like, like writing and so sometimes I just do it and then I'm like, maybe we didn't actually need this. I'm not gonna continue, but I enjoyed thinking about it.

But I also think that that's super, super valuable still because writing is a processing thing too, right? So when you're writing like thought leadership stuff, which is typically what a lot of the essays that I end up writing don't do anything with. I have a whole folder on my Chrome profile, which is just like essays. And I think it's just like a really good way to solidify what you think with yourself anyway. It's almost like conversing with yourself. I guess that's why people journal. I don't really journal, but sometimes.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

So I don't always use those things. I think that's the only thing that I would say that I don't really use. I also actually, I do build out a lot of project management templates and stuff that we don't always need. But we do use a lot of them. But sometimes I'm just a nerd for building out click up templates. Yeah.

Jeff Albaum

I feel like you're the definition of an entrepreneur like you're you go into a company you're like, okay, I'm gonna do my own thing. I'm gonna make stuff I'm gonna build things and like basically like you're not breaking the limits of anything like you're not testing the boundaries, but you're just like being extremely helpful and I'm sure everyone you work with is probably loves that

Jackie

think that that is a title that I would agree with and I think that pretty much everybody at my company would probably also agree with that. Yeah, I think. I don't want to speak for people, but that makes sense. Yeah.

Jeff Albaum

Yeah. When when you when your work is like because you said you got into this because you're like obsessed with the daily, right? Is there a party that is like kind of burnt out about like it's hard to at the end of your day, you're like, the last thing I want to do is listen to a podcast.

Jackie

Mm-hmm.

Yes. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's actually interesting. It's kind of like, so one of the reasons that I, obviously I didn't like, news radio just like had more jobs and I found myself liking that. So I got into it. But one of the reasons I ended up not going into music radio is because I love music so much. And I just found that it kind of, it like,

Jeff Albaum

You

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

deflated that love a little bit when I'm listening and I'm trying to like discover things for the sake of like programming or whatever it was. And I think that any industry that you're in, if you go and do something you love, it's great to do things that you love. And I love that I get to do something that I love, but yeah, it really does like make you want to consume other things. And I think...

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

I listen to podcasts, but the podcasts that I listen to are very different from the things that I produce also. So like, I really, really like to listen to really bad fiction, like horror, sci-fi podcasts. And that's kind of almost all that I actually find myself listening to when I do listen to podcasts. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Are you a big reader? You said you write, so do you write for fun outside of work?

Jackie

Yeah, I write a lot for fun outside of work. That's one of the things that's difficult, too, is because I write a lot for a living. So sometimes I find myself drained there. But I do write a lot. I've written a slasher screenplay. wrote a really crappy time travel novel once. I do a lot of really cheesy songs and stuff, too, because I like to play my guitar. So I do a lot of writing. And I also do a lot of reading. That's probably what I do mostly with

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

my spare time like that and like playing guitar. I'm a big reader, yeah.

Jeff Albaum

Okay. That's awesome. Do you like, how do you think about the impacts of AI on the future of podcasting and just like media in general?

Jackie

I have experimented a lot with AI. As soon as it's like chat GPT started to become a big thing, was like, okay, I'm gonna see what I can do with this. And I've built out like a bunch of different like different individual bots for shows for like specific tasks and stuff that like the GPTs, you can do the customized ones. I've done a lot of that kind of stuff. And I think what I've learned is that it's really, really good at helping you stay on track, but it's not good at.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

Helping you it's not good at making you do better if that if that makes sense like as in like a creative Way, it's I think that this isn't this isn't like a hot take or anything But it's not creative and I actually think that a lot of the output is pretty stale and I think it can be really helpful for Process documents and stuff where the writing doesn't necessarily need to have like a personality or the creative and it's just about like organizing thoughts and structuring things I that's really really helpful, especially somebody like

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

me, my brain is just like so scattered. Sometimes it can be difficult to reign things in. And I think it does help me just kind of see, okay, this is a structure. This is what I could be doing. And that's, that's great. So it's, yeah, it's like a tool, but I'm not actually concerned about it because I think it's, it's just, it lacks, now I'm going to like eat my words in like five years or whatever, maybe even sooner. It lacks personality.

And I think that the reason that we like content is because of personality. And like more so, I believe that the actual delivery of your content is more important than what you're delivering. And I think that like, doesn't necessarily, it can't really do that in a unique way. And if everybody's using, mean, it could progress where I'm like, I'm really stuttering over this because I'm like so hesitant that it's suddenly gonna like develop personalities.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

and be like really, really cool and people are gonna love it. Especially like my nieces are like 10 and seven and they're talking about using chat GPT in school and like they're just so used to it. So it might be different where like they are just like, okay, yeah, like this is a chat GPT personality or this is like an AI personality, that's fine. But I think still I'm still on like the old person thing where it's like, no, just doesn't feel like I can't connect to it the same way. And I personally feel like my writing has a lot of character. I like my writing and I've tried to get

I've tried to chat tpt to repeat it. I've tried to get perplexity to repeat it and it just doesn't feel like I can tell it's not me, which makes me feel like other people will be able to tell it's not me. So for a creative perspective, I'm not concerned. I do think that it is good for like the 70 % of people creating content, but there's the 30 % that are just like unique voices and those are the 30 % that typically

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

surpass that level of just like, that baseline success. If you know what I mean. Does that make sense? I'm kind of rambling about it because I'm live processing, but I do think, okay, this is the thought. There's 100 % of the content that's out there. I think 70 % that exists in like a medium. Like it's like this middle place where it's like these people are gonna be.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

doing things that are successful and they're making a living off of this and they're making content that people are watching. Then I think there's like that 30 % where it's like these people are providing something unique and are interesting and are more memorable. And it's less about like, do I keep up with the content game? How am I repeating templates and structures and stuff that have been successful in the past? And more just like this person's voice is interesting. I don't think that chat GPT or like AI can do that. I think that it can do the 70%. So that's why I think that your ability to

Jeff Albaum

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

have your personality and authenticity is what is going to make you different. When like, obviously, I'd always has been but for AI specifically. So personally, I'm not afraid because I feel confident in my ability to do that. But it also is great because it does like level the playing field a little bit or like just kind of, guess, create less barriers for people who have something to say but maybe we're never that like talented, I guess that

presenting it, so there are benefits there. Short answer, I'm not concerned. I think it's interesting.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Okay, fair enough. I want to drill down something you said earlier. You said that you think that the delivery of your content is much more important than the content itself? Okay, can you say more about that? What does that mean?

Jackie

you

Yeah, yeah, this is something that, yeah, okay, so I've been thinking a lot, a lot about this in the past year or so, and I think I've always thought about it, but it's only recently where I've been kind of hammering in on it. The content game, the reason that people consume content is because they want to consume content, they wanna be entertained, or they want something to be delivered to them in an interesting way that's engaging.

If you want to pure information, then you would just like read a textbook. You'd read a paper you do whatever but that's boring and that's difficult for a lot of people to sit through so they want content so they want to be delivered to them the thing that I think people forget when they're making content is that The value that you have or the information that you have Isn't really unique. There's a lot of people that think the same things have said the same things in the past I've probably said something

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

already that has already been said a million times. even like even specific expertise, know, it's not something that's actually unique. Your perspective, you could think is unique, maybe it's unique in the space and that's fine. But also there's other people, you might have like the right perspective, but there's other people who might be more convincing. And so therefore, their perspective could be wrong or what their information is could be wrong, but they're better at delivering it. And so people are listening to that anyway. The reason so.

I think that people are not coming back to you because of the information. So even if you have a piece of content that is really, really high delivery or high value, the information is great and somebody watched it or listened to it or read it or whatever, and they got something out of it. They're not gonna come back to you if they don't feel like they've connected to you or that it was memorable. They're gonna, next time they look for more information, they're gonna go and find the information. And if it's just an information game, then they can find that anywhere.

What you want is you want people to come back because, not because of the information that you provided, but because of the way that you provided it. That's what makes you unique, not your information, not your value. So having that personality or whatever, it could be like your individual personality. also like to use, like for, if it's not like a specific person, I like to use Chris Gazact as an example, which is like a, it's like a cartoon science.

YouTube channel that I used to watch a lot, but it's not a person. It's just like it's a specific style and I used to watch it because I liked that specific style and I liked it the way that they wrote and I liked the animations were cool to watch. But the information that they were doing like, you know, there's a ton of other channels that were doing the same thing, but I went to them because I liked the way they were doing it. That is what I think the game is now. It's how do you convince people to come back to you?

as opposed to going to the other person who's saying the same thing as you. So yeah, I think people overvalue their value, undervalue the way that they are actually delivering that. Because yeah, it's content. Content is entertainment. So entertain people, connect with them. Don't just provide information.

Jeff Albaum

That's so interesting. Okay, so maybe to ask the obvious next question is like, okay, as someone who produces content for a living, how do you do that? What does that mean if I'm a third grader? Literally, how do you do that?

Jackie

How do you find your delivery? Like, how do you, is that what you mean?

Jeff Albaum

Yeah, like how do you think about your, because like okay, you have this information, like you wanna write an article, you wanna write an essay. You're gonna be, in your words, like saying the same information that is out there in other places and people have thought about and known, but you still do it and you take the time to do it. So like what is the belief you have or what is the framework you think about for making that deliverable valuable? Does that make sense?

Jackie

Mm-hmm.

Making the, so making your delivery the thing. Honestly, it's just about really understanding you, like in your, you're a brand, then your brand or whatever, but it's about understanding like what makes you, an authentic, because people aren't going to buy it if you like, you you can, okay, I guess there's two ways to come up, to go about it. There is the, yes, leaning completely into the personality bit and just like,

characterizing that. I think when I present, I'm a character of myself. So when you see me present things or do videos and stuff, it's like, it's an exaggerated version of myself because that comes across better than like a more calm version of myself. But it's still me. It's still me. It's just, it's, you know, I've had my friends watch it and they're like, yeah, like you don't emote like that when you speak regularly, but that is still you. So you get in touch with that and kind of like just really pull that out. So it's like really, really obvious.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

Same thing with a brand, if you know your brand. But you should really, really understand what your personality is. And you should make it personable, so don't just try to flatten it out. Especially brands do that. They want to play safe. And it's OK to play safe, but also just play safe in some areas, and then figure out where to exaggerate it in others. So there's that, which is just like, flat, mean, yeah. think flat means you're literally just removing the personality from it.

Jeff Albaum

What do you mean by flat? Sorry, what does mean to play flat?

Jackie

you want to deliver things in a way that is clear and just boring, right? Like the difference between a teacher who, if you have like an English teacher and they're like explaining the plot to Macbeth, it's like, okay, that's like, they can walk through the different plot points and say, know, Lady Macbeth was crazy here. Why was she doing that? That's wild that she would be like.

manipulate him or whatever or whatever. I'm not taking sides on Macbeth. Okay, but if you have a teacher who's like, if you do have a teacher who's like invested in it and is saying, man, I really, really didn't like Lady Macbeth here. This is why, because she did this. maybe Macbeth was crazy that he would actually, like he was so power hungry. Can you believe that? Like it's like,

If you're injecting your personality, you're injecting your thoughts, your opinions, or just like the intonation even, it's just like reflecting the fact that you feel. Whereas a flat version is just like, are the plot points, this is what happened. And I think that a lot of brands, they think that because they're still giving you the plot to Macbeth, that they are, it's fine to deliver it like that because that's the, you it's safe. Nobody's gonna take offense to the fact that I said, man, maybe Lady Macbeth was a bit crazy.

they're just gonna let other people do the thinking, which is great. And I still like there's space for that, but again, you're creating content, so you wanna entertain people. So it's just about like, not trying to play it safe by just delivering. I think that's where it's flat. Just injecting yourself and not being afraid to. I also think that one of the biggest things that I always tell people is that, embrace your curiosity. If you're curious about something, if you're excited about something,

then you have to embrace that because that's what makes things interesting. If people see that you're curious about something, then they're going to be curious about it as well. And also, it's more interesting when you're invested in something as well. So I like to really, really follow what I'm curious about. And that helps me really, really bring out my personality and make it feel not so flat. If I'm saying the other thing that I was going to say for

for like trying to make your identity, value, or like, yeah, the delivery, your delivery unique is just format as well. Like this is the prime example. The thing that I use all the time is Hot Ones. Now I think Sean Evans is a fantastic interviewer as well, but I do think that the success of Hot Ones is really like the delivery of it is the, it's a celebrity interview. There's celebrity interviews everywhere. But obviously there's

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

the chicken wings and that's like the gimmick and it's the hot sauce and it's great. But it's also just like this one, okay, this is you want to, if you come up with things that are like unique like that, then that's fantastic. But this one, the reason that this one is so good and this is now just me going a little bit on a tangent because I just think it's so great is that there's a game, it's gamified because it's like, well, how far are they going to be able to get? We're going all the way up and you know you're anticipating the next one because we're at one, we're at two, we're at three, we're at four. So there's always anticipation, which is like a huge thing in storytelling is you don't want to lose anticipation.

But then there's also this level of, it's regular celebrity interview, but you're taking people who are so, so polished and you're putting them in an environment where they have no control over their bodily reactions and the way that their reactions. And it's like the most vulnerable that you can get. They're like snot coming out of their nose and they're like crying and they're trying to answer these questions, but all they can think about is the fact that their mouth is on fire. And I'm like, damn, like,

Jeff Albaum

you

Jackie

that's a celebrity interview that's great. Now you're like, compare that to, you know, somebody sitting in front of a celebrity and asking them the same questions even. You could ask the same questions and it could still feel flat and kind of boring. But that just like, that adds something that now makes it unique. And I'm going to choose that one over another interview with the same celebrity who maybe again, like is being asked the exact same questions because that, that about the delivery of that is just like so much more interesting.

And it also just like adds to the reason or it adds to the, yeah, it makes the interview more deep, authentic. Yeah, so there's, yeah, there's two short answers then. One, exaggerate your own personality, really, really lean into your own curiosity, be excited about things and have opinions sometimes. And then two,

Think about the ways that you can do things differently that add to the situation in a constructive way, but are also just unique and interesting. Those are the two ways you can think about your delivery. But that, again, to me, matters more than the information itself.

Jeff Albaum

Interesting so not I kind of want to I want to push back on a couple things you said and just get your reaction to them so like I Think if I heard you your your main point for at least the first point was like Authenticity is super important. Like you can't really do anything if you're not authentic, right?

So like for shows like Andrew Huberman, like the Huberman Lab podcast, right? Like I would actually say his information is like pretty flat. And it's like really just him reading like a bunch of these like scientific studies for like hours at a time. But people love that. Like, is that because he's that's like, that's him? Like he gets excited about whatever he's talking about.

Jackie

Yeah, so I can't specifically comment on him because I have never ever listened to a single thing that he's So, but if I'm thinking about it when I worked in radio, we had, it was news radio, we had five or six shows on a day or something like that, I forget. And it's the same stories, because it was Toronto news, right? So it's the same stories every single day. And everybody's reporting on the same thing.

Jeff Albaum

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

And there was one host we had who was who do afternoons and he like his whole thing was that he was like really flat and he had a good voice which also helped. But people do love that but again like that was like authentically him. I don't think that like I wouldn't necessarily conflate flat with with like

boring. There's flat and there's flat. There's flat as in you're removing the personality and then there's flat as in your personality is flat. And I think that that's okay if your personality is flat, if that's actually you, because people are going to like that, people are going to relate to that. But yeah, so I think that that's the difference. If that is Andrew Huberman, that's who he is, that's what it also, it still is like a unique delivery of information in that sense, but he's just the one doing it well.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

And that's why people are going back to him, I guess. It is like, you know, there are people who are going to want to listen to people read studies just like off the cuff, you know, whatever. If that's actually who he is and that's what he's doing and that's what he feels like, it almost feels like that's his version of being excited. Then I think that that comes across and people can feel that. But I think if it was like somebody like maybe me just reading off of a study, like a study.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

and suppressing my actual personality, people would also be able to sense that. I think people are better at sensing things like that than even they realize.

Jeff Albaum

So I totally agree by the What do you think that is? Like when you're chatting with someone and you're like, I think you're full of crap. Like I think, I don't think you believe the things you're saying and like you can just feel that. What is that? If you had to describe it, like put it into words.

Jackie

I don't actually know. guess it's just intuition. Like, I think we just all have intuition. It's really hard to say, because I can't really name it, and I don't really know why. But you know, like, so I always say that my favorite type of person is the type of person who couldn't hide who they are if they tried, right? Like, you just like, you know, like this person, they can be really, really weird, or like, they can say like the craziest stuff. Maybe they're even kind of mean or something. But I'm just like, well, that's just kind of you. I like that. You can tell when somebody is just who they are.

Jeff Albaum

Okay. Okay.

Yeah.

Jackie

Even if they're like, like I said, even if they're like super annoying or something, I'm like, I still like you because I can tell that that's who you are. If somebody is, I don't know, you just kind of, you can just kind of tell when somebody's trying to present differently than they are. I can't like pinpoint why or how, but like you feel it too. It's just like, it's intuition, I guess. And I think we all like, that's why I don't think that people even realize that they have it. And that's why I think that people think that they're getting away with it is because you can't really put a, like a...

Jeff Albaum

Yeah.

Jackie

You can't really like put a process down and say, is how you do this. It's like, no, we just kind of feel it. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff Albaum

Yeah.

I feel like kids are the best at this. Kids kind of have this amazing BS detector where they'll hang out with the cool adults and you're like, whoever kids like is like I want to be friends with.

Jackie

Yeah, yeah. No, I used to get in trouble as a kid because I would call out adults. I thought they were bullshitting. I got in trouble a lot. I was like suspended at like six years old.

Jeff Albaum

What did you say? You're like, I think you're lying. Like I don't think you'd believe that. What did you say?

Jackie

Well, I don't remember all of it. I remember just whenever I thought that they were being, yeah, I don't know. I can't even remember what I said. just, remember being suspended plenty of times. Yeah, but I think like my niece and my nephew, well, my nephew more so does that even now. And he'll just like say, that's not true. Like that's not true. You're not like, you know.

But yeah, I don't know. That's a good point though. Kids, like the whole kids and animals thing, kids and animals like you. That's again, like this is the thing, an animal doesn't know why they like somebody or why they don't. Like, and you can't like teach an animal the process to like read a person, but like animals are really good at reading people, right?

Jeff Albaum

Right, right, right. My wife and I talked about it, we literally talked about this last week, like what is energy? We're trying to figure it out. We're like, what is energy? What is that feeling of like, you chat with somebody and like, they're the best. I just want to hang out with them more. I want to get to know them more. And it's so weird, because it's not characteristics. It's not even on paper. But you just have some friends. You're like, dude, on paper we should not be friends, but I love hanging out with you. And you're so fun.

Jackie

Yeah.

Charisma you can't define. I don't think you can define charisma Or like chemistry you can't really define it or like force it but it's there Some people have it some people don't yeah

Jeff Albaum

I know.

Yeah, yeah. Did you, like, do you remember, was there an age where you realized, like, snap, like, I'm different, like, I can, I am a bit more intuitive than people that, like, are my peers? Or was there, like, have you always felt that way?

Jackie

I wouldn't say I'm more intuitive than people. think I'm just like, I was an unfiltered child because I just had behavioral issues and extreme ADD, which I refused to take medication for when I was a kid. But I think the different thing, mean, think I, listen, I'm not gonna trigger, I was a weird kid and I think I'm a weird adult sometimes even.

to put, my God, I feel like that Cole Sprouse meme. But I think that I knew that really early, but I think that the reason that I felt that way is because I just don't really, I just really, this is, I really, really care about the things that I'm interested in. And like I'm curious about, and I think that that's something that I have been, like I do, and I have like actively,

embraced my entire life. And I think that that's something that as an adult, I've now come to reflect and realize is something that is has been super, super helpful for me to do things, be to feel confident doing things, maybe sometimes like honestly too confident. Like I should really scale back some of the my confidence sometimes. But I think that, yeah, as a kid, I didn't realize that I was doing that because I just like was filtering everything out. I did not care. I didn't care about getting in trouble. I didn't really care.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

that if other kids didn't like it or if I was annoying or whatever it was. But yeah, I think that just like, it's just embracing authentic curiosity and interest and excitement and just always being exciting or excited about things. I don't know that really answers your question, but that's like, if I'm trying to think, yeah, I don't think I've ever really, really, really thought too deeply about it. But if I'm thinking about what has carried over from.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

that personality as a kid to my personality as an adult in my career. I think that's it. And I think that's the most helpful thing in all aspects of my life in both career, because I do things, my creative side projects, because I just constantly am creating things because I want to and I'm interested in it. And then also in like just general happiness, too. I think if you're always curious, it's easier to stay happy. That's that's like, yeah, I don't know. Now I'm getting deep.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

about it.

Jeff Albaum

How often, I feel like you're the type of person that doesn't do stuff that they're not excited about for a long period of time. So like, how do you maintain, because like, you know, we're all human, like there's day to day stuff that comes up that we're like not gonna be excited about, like doing laundry. I like folding laundry, I don't like doing laundry. But so like, how is, do you have like a method for like, okay, if I'm doing things for, I don't know, three or four days in a row that I'm like not excited about, like I gotta make a change. Do you think about it like that, or it's not, it's more intuitive, like it's just more like as you're going?

Jackie

Yeah.

Mm-mm.

I actually just struggle with this in general. First off, I an adult do take my ADD medication. So that helps do things that I don't want to do. I do well when I get letters from the finance office saying you need to respond to this or you'll be deported. That kind of stuff forces me to do the things that I need to do. I will say though, I...

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

I'm also the type of person who really, really needs to be settled and clean and organized to be able to focus and feel creative. Otherwise, I feel like this pressure of guilt or whatever. I do. I'm actually very good at staying in routine for all my chores and everything. I'm actually maybe a little bit too obsessive about keeping up with my chores. But I think in terms of career, think there are obviously things that I don't want to do.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

And my goal is to kind of just to power through and find ways to make it interesting. I think that everything is interesting if you allow yourself to embrace it as opposed to just feeling like this is kind of shitty, boring work. So even the like super, super long, just processed documents I can get interested in if I don't sit down with the mindset of like, fuck, I gotta get through this shit now.

But yeah, I also think that if the reason that I'm in the job that I'm in now and I mean, because I was really bad at school actually in college. It took me an extra year to finish because if I didn't like a class, there was one class I didn't actually know where it was. I just didn't go to it. It like and that was like cost me another year of my life and an extra couple thousand dollars as a consequence. But I did have a hard time just doing

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jackie

I do have a hard time doing things and I would never go back to school because I don't think I would pass. I don't think I'd pass. But I do think that I, at the same time, just go so hard on the things that do interest me and that I'm curious about. And because of that, I can almost make up for the things that I'm not doing. And I get this job and I get to do all these things.

in this job that I really like and I get to kind of force my way into the things that I'm interested in because I'm just so excited and interested and curious about those things. And so then it's like, well, other people start to recognize that my energy is better used over here, right? So I'm not bitter about the things I have to do. I do the things I have to do. But when you're just like all in on the things that you love, you get results that are good anyway. And then you get to do those things more.

Jeff Albaum

Hmm.

Jackie

Yeah, does that make sense? think that's kind of, yeah, okay.

Jeff Albaum

Totally. Yeah. Well, and it's just it's funny because as you're talking, I just couldn't help but think like, it's funny that you say that you would never go back to school because I feel like you've mentioned like intense curiosity so much and like that is literally what learning is, right? You're just like, so you love learning. It's just like in this confines of school. It's like, bleh.

Jackie

Yeah.

I do love learning. I used to go to lectures that I wasn't in. And I also failed a couple of classes because I went to the lectures and I did the exams, but I didn't do the projects. Like, I do love learning. I never want to stop. I think it's just like there are different people who learn differently and I learn in a different way and a different pace. so that makes sense for me to, I mean, listen, I should criticize myself here.

Jeff Albaum

Hmm

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

I need to just have more discipline in general for that kind of stuff. school is important. And I think that it's good to do things that you don't want to do. And I think that it's stupid of me to say, shouldn't. I don't need that because I learned this way. It's like, no, there are reasons that we are taught that way. There are reasons that we do projects. And there are reasons that we have those kinds of class structures and stuff. So it's like, I'm not saying, I'm too good for that. I don't think that at all. I think that this is a flaw that I have that I've just luckily have been able to make up for in other ways.

love learning and I always like think that I never want to stop if I ever like stop feeling curious or wanting to learn about things then I think that that like I don't know that sounds horrible but I just don't want to pay twenty thousand dollars to feel stressed because I don't want to do a project for this class I want to do an extra project for this other one instead yeah I just know myself enough yeah

Jeff Albaum

Totally, totally, which is why it's so fun to be an adult, because you gotta make those decisions.

Jackie

Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Albaum

So you're obviously an insanely high output individual. I feel like you do a lot. And you said you're very disciplined with your routines, in your chores, I think, specifically. What does your typical day in the life look like when you're home and not traveling? Like a Wednesday, like a work day.

Jackie

Mm-hmm.

First off, it's interesting you say high output because I never feel high output. I never ever ever actually feel that I'm doing enough, which is like something that I have to convince myself that no, I am even like in my personal creative stuff and work. But like, I always feel like I'm actually not high output. And then I'm like slacking too much, which that's like I'm working on that with my therapist. But

Jeff Albaum

Hmm.

Jackie

What does a day in life look like? Okay, so I, first off, I'm not really a great morning person. I don't like waking up in the morning. Here, I'm with, like I said, I'm at my sister's right now, so I have three children who like to wake up at like seven, so I'm waking up earlier here. And that's totally okay with me because then I get like another 45 minutes out of the day with them when I don't get to see them that much, so I'm happy with that. Usually though, when I'm at home, I wake up, like I like have to force myself out of bed around nine, nine thirty. And...

I start my day immediately by doing all of my chores around the house. So I'll start like, yeah, I do, clean anything that I didn't clean the night before. I do all my laundry. will, like I vacuum every morning, all that kind of stuff. All my chores I get, I spend like two hours just like first thing in the morning doing all that. And then I convince myself that I've been productive and then I don't do my admin, which is the thing that I'm bad at.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

And in Germany too, they exactly, exactly. In Germany too, like they're so it's I get mailed on my bills still. And when I was living in Canada, I didn't. So I would just like, you know, just like automatically come out of my account or like I go to an appointment and then I just pay there. Here I get bills mailed to me and it's like, don't it's not that I don't want to pay the bill. It's like, I want to sit down and open this letter and then pay the bill. So that kind of stuff, I have to force myself to do that. That isn't in my routine. That's in like a

Jeff Albaum

until you get the letter from the Office of Finance.

Sure.

Jackie

It's been three weeks, you really need to sit down and do all this right now. But after I do that, I typically try to start working, but there are many, many days where I get distracted and I play guitar for like four hours or something, which is not helpful. Yeah, which is nice because then sometimes the days where I have the most to do,

Work-wise are the days that I will write an entire and reproduce like an entire song and in and not do anything else. But I yeah, I will start working. But I also just kind of typically sit and work for like I'll just like get in the zone for like six or seven hours straight. And I usually work until like 10, 11, sometimes 12 in the like in the night because I

feel like I work best in the evening. I'm somebody who as soon as like 10 PM hits around hits, I'm like, I'm awake. Before that is like my brain doesn't really work, which is why I like to do chores in the morning because that's like a lot less brain power. But yeah, I think that that's kind of my regular day. And then I'll finish if I finish work at like 12, then I'll just stay up to like two or three, like reading or whatever or right now rewatching Smallville.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Sure.

Jackie

because it's on Netflix and that was my favorite show growing up. But yeah, that's, also I forgot an important part of my routine actually. Before I start working, after I finish cleaning, I sit down and I do the New York Times crossword, but only until Wednesdays because after that it is impossible and I will admit to cheating on Wednesdays even. So, because it gets harder every day. Mondays, I feel so smart.

Jeff Albaum

for sure.

Jackie

Really, really good for the ego on Mondays. Yeah. In fact, I download Monday packs. It's just to do Monday packs because I'm like, hell yeah. Look at me go. I knew what an Oreo was. Yeah.

Jeff Albaum

Are you?

Are you still an avid daily listener?

Jackie

No, no, I stopped that. So when I left news, I stopped, I was obsessed with news and I knew everything from American politics and Canadian politics. I knew everything that was going on. People would ask me to keep them updated. And as soon as I left news, was like, need, mentally, I cannot keep up. I'm gonna keep up with this. I'm gonna be a regular person from now on. And so I don't, I don't.

follow it as intensely anymore and I stopped listening to The Daily and American politics in general used to be entertaining and kind of funny and now it's just kind of sad. So I really, yeah, I don't like to, I keep up with it like as much as like the responsible person should, but I'm not, no, just like, this is like drama entertainment that I don't want.

Jeff Albaum

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, 100%. So I know you mentioned it a little bit earlier, but like you said, you like to read, you like to write, you don't necessarily listen to podcasts unless they're like fictional horror. So what are the types of books you like to read? what's had the biggest impact on you from a content perspective?

Jackie

Content perspective, Kurt Vonnegut is my favorite writer. I've read everything. He's written including like his essays and stuff. I think he's done a lot for me and I read him at like a really pivotal time too. Like I read him when I was in college and I was kind of in that transition of young adult to like a, you know, actual person. And so I think that his writing style even like had like a lot of like a really big impact on me. And

Jeff Albaum

Okay.

Jackie

I also just like the ideas and like the way that he conveys ideas is very interesting. I'm also a huge Hemingway fan as like from a writing perspective. I don't even like like the setting. Like he's someone who has short stories and stuff or like big game hunting and stuff. I hate that. Or like The Sun Also Rises is literally about the running of the bulls and stuff. And I'm like, I don't agree. I don't I don't know if it's hot take. I don't really care. I don't like that. I don't like it. But I love the books so much.

And so it's the way that he writes, I think is just like super, super, super interesting. And I think that his simplicity is the power. I think I think about that a lot when I'm doing writing myself. other, so Hemingway, this is unfortunate, it's just men, Hemingway and Kurt Vonnegut, I think are the biggest like writing influences. Also Dostoevsky.

I love Dostoevsky so much. It's rambly. It's not even close to the same writing style as Kurt Vonnegut and Hemingway are both very, very scaled back in terms of like, yeah, like the amount that they're, they're just like, they keep it simple and like they cut everything. Dostoevsky rambles. But I think that the way that he structures stories for conveying very, very complex ideas is fascinating. And so I really, really liked that. In fact, I read The Idiot for the first time.

earlier, I guess, I guess last year. And I was like, damn, this is like the greatest. I love this book so much is so long and there are so many boring parts, but I just love it. The way the actual ideas are getting across. don't know. It's very interesting. The character work, I guess. And you know what it is? I think that Dostoevsky doesn't feel the need to humanize the characters that much. Like it's not that

I think he almost fully understood that a character will never be a person, right? A character is character and they serve a purpose in a story. And I don't think that you shouldn't think about your characters as humans or people, but I do think that if you recognize the limitation where they're never gonna be that much, like they're never gonna be that deep, like as deep as a real person is, because it's impossible to do. Then you can do this really, really, really interesting thing where you can create their character around

perspective or like an idea and using characters as ideas and then having those ideas interact that to me is fascinating and I think the Brothers Karamazov is like the best way to to see that just because like the three brothers they all just kind of represent very specific ideas but yeah I think I took that from him writing style simplicity and like power from Hemingway

Jeff Albaum

Hmm.

Jackie

And then Kurt Vonnegut is just like silly wordplay and just everything else. That's what I took from him. And then other than that, I think songwriting, I'm a really, that's where we can get, like, there's women there. I think a lot from that as well, because I like the poetry of it. I like metaphors. I like when, I like storytelling, but like,

analogous. my god, songwriting is really good for that kind of stuff. So I trying to think of like examples, but this one is just like, there are so many artists that I listen to. I just want to say the Japanese house because I love the Japanese house. But Adrian Lanker, like that kind of stuff. The there's a lot I take a lot I guess from from that kind of storytelling as well.

Jeff Albaum

Man, Jackie, you're awesome.

Jackie

You know what, also going to do, okay, I'm sorry, I was going to one third thing. I'm going to say something that's going to make me like, I don't really care if people think about this. I think that something that's really interesting and you can tell because of the amount of people that copied it is when Phoebe Bridgers came out and like her album Punisher got a lot of attention. I think what that taught a lot of people is that you can be specific to yourself without without having to like try to universalize experiences.

Jeff Albaum

Yeah, hit it.

Jackie

because she just wrote like such like she'll just write like the stupidest like you know very very specific moments and still they're relatable to everybody even though I was never at a payphone in on a payphone in Kyoto talking to my dad on the phone or whatever it's like it's like but she was like the hyper specific thing and then everybody started copying that because it connected people to real life moments I think that's another thing that's really interesting that I think

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Jackie

maybe have thought about more than I realize since that album came out from like a writing perspective. Yeah. And there we go. I'm now putting Phoebe Bridgers, which I don't even listen to her that much with, I mean, Kurt Vonnegut. That feels weird. Yeah, that's, my God. I don't even, I don't even listen. I listen to like, Built the Spilt. Anyway, yeah. Yeah.

Jeff Albaum

Kurt Vonnegut in Hemingway, Doris Deske.

Dang, well Jackie, you're awesome. Thank you so much for doing this. I so appreciate you. Where can people find you if they wanna see more of your stuff or reach out? can they get connected?

Jackie

Yeah, I'm best on LinkedIn. I don't really have socials. Just lower street, YouTube channel and LinkedIn. That's pretty much where I exist online. Yeah. I think this has been awesome. It's like such a fun conversation. So thank you.

Jeff Albaum

Awesome.

Thank you. Yeah, thank you for coming on. I appreciate you. All right. Bye, everybody.

Jackie

Thank you.