Walking Away from the Money Trap w/ Ross Guttler

Jeff Albaum

Mmmmm

Got it, got it, got it, okay.

Have you traced the lineage? Like you know where it comes from?

Ross

We were, my family, think a lot of us were from around Kiev and a lot of us were from around Warsaw.

Jeff Albaum

Okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay.

Ross

Yeah, although Gudelmacher or Gudelmeier

Jeff Albaum

But I felt the borders were changing and it was all similar. Okay.

Ross

So, thank you. One and only. One and only. I appreciate it. Serial spirits list. Well, Jeff. Well, Jeff, thank you for asking. What I'm holding here, especially for those who are on audio and you can't see, it probably looks like a thing of mushrooms, but it's not. This is true Egyptian blue lotus that I got from my friend Illip.

Jeff Albaum

So Ross, are we drinking here? What do we got?

Ross

Metamorphletus.com is his company and Illup works with a friend of mine, Velina, who you met earlier today. And Velina works with a team of women on the Nile and they cultivate true Egyptian blue lotus. She also works with a team of women in Ometepe in Nicaragua. They did the same thing. And the reason that's important for me is because I'm building a spiritual center called House of Blue Lotus. So like, you know...

We're gonna have blue lotus tea together. I'm taking For those on audio. I'm taking a gorgeous gorgeous. I'm gonna hold up this flower so people can see it Like look at that That's the tea. I'm having that in this tea set. Yeah, For what since it's just me. I'm just gonna do one leaf. Also. These are these are ridiculously expensive leaves And put in a little water

Jeff Albaum

That's beautiful.

Okay.

Ross

so that you and I can have some tea together. Because you went, you went, and you got some blue lotus just for this call, which I appreciate.

Jeff Albaum

Amazing.

I did. I did. did. was happy to. It was a fun journey to the tea store. The curator of the tea shop was like, I just got some in. Come in. Let's talk about it.

Ross

Ciao.

Jeff Albaum

Okay, so if you're a newbie like I am, I have no idea what Blue Lotus is or what the background is. like what is it? Why is this the important place for you?

Ross

Okay, I want to set the stage that I am not an expert in Blue Lotus. And what I, do you think somebody, if I were listening to myself say this, I'd be like, how the fuck does that guy not know more about this? But whatever, it's okay. I know what I know, which is little. And it is, the general perception around it is it's for third eye and throat chakra.

Jeff Albaum

Okay.

Ross

vision and clarity. You know, people do use it for lucid dreaming and some people take it to like relax. And it is technically a psychoactive, not a psychedelic. Don't ask me to define the difference, but you know, I think a psychoactive is like, it can have psychedelic properties, probably at certain levels. Again, I'm not a psychedelic researcher. You know, I'm sure Wikipedia can tell you the difference better than me.

I don't take huge doses of it, actually. I take extremely small doses of it. And for me, it's more about the energy. I'm trying to pull in that energy of vision and clarity to give me, to like, allow me to connect with like, what do I need vision and clarity for in this moment? They're not always both. It may be one or the other. And then, and then I can come back to, okay, those drops, that blue lotus is in my body. I can come back and channel this energy when I need to.

Jeff Albaum

Hmm

Hmm, okay

Ross

That's my relationship to it. And I'm really excited. You know, I think an interesting thing, Jeff, because you and I, we study Torah together every Friday. That's how we know each other. We've been doing it together for years. And that is a specific path, the path of Judaism. And there's even different flavors of that, so many flavors inside the path of Judaism. And so...

The reason I'm bringing it up is I have generally not felt called in my life to pick one particular spiritual modality and go very deep. even the concept of that came to me. I was launching a company in Tokyo in 2018 that was around meditation and collaboration and creativity and problem solving for executive teams.

And we would bring in these like executive teams from Fortune 500 companies and guide them through this problem solve. We would navigate this problem solving journey with them and meditation was infused in it. And when I was out there, I met this guy, David Nicktern, and David is a OG meditation teacher that studied under CTR. And CTR is who brought Tibetan Buddhism to the West back in the 50s. And David

Upon getting to know me was like, Ross, I want you to come be my guest at the Ram Dass retreat in Maui in May. This is May of 2018. No, May 2019. And he said, I think this is going to be his last one. I have a feeling. And David was right. Ram Dass passed away later that year. David was prophetic in that way.

Jeff Albaum

And who's Ram Dass? I've heard that name. I couldn't tell you who he is.

Ross

Ram Dass was a... He was known for many things, but he was a...

When he was in his 20s, he was a professor at Harvard with this guy named Timothy Leary. Timothy Leary was known for popularizing LSD in the 60s. And they were psychedelic researchers. And Ram Dass ends up going to India and studying under this guru, the Maharaji, and took on a whole spiritual life and became a very revered and powerful spiritual figure himself.

Jeff Albaum

Okay, got it.

Ross

And he wrote a book called Be Here Now. That was like his most famous book. And I think he's known for this saying of, all just walking each other home. That's like that statement. That's what life's about, just walking each other home. And so I'm at this, I'm in Maui, I'm at this retreat and David and I are having lunch. And he said, Ross, I think you really need to pick a path and go deep on the path. And I said, you know, David,

Jeff Albaum

OK. OK.

Ross

I appreciate that advice. I don't feel called to any particular path in this moment. You know?

Jeff Albaum

And what was your relationship with David at this point? Because you said you had met him in Tokyo. So while you were working in Tokyo, your colleagues, what was the relationship?

Ross

Someone, because I was running this company, and he was a meditation teacher, and he was like a very well-known meditation teacher, people were like, you two need to be friends. Yeah. So they, people like matched us together. You know. And we liked each other. So, you know, like we were friends. Yeah.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Got it, got it, got it, okay, okay.

Okay.

For sure, okay, gotcha. So you said, I'm not so interested in just one.

Ross

I said, I said, yeah, I said, actually love exploring a lot of different practices and modalities and traditions and going more than an inch deep, but not 10 years deep, you know? And I said, maybe one day that'll change for me. Maybe one day it'll hit me and I'll be like, I know what I want to go deep on. And the reason I brought all that up is because I'm feeling blue lotus is that thing for me, which is like, I am, I've realized how much excitement

I of I want to go with Velina to Egypt to actually put my hands in the mud and work with the women cultivating blue lotus there. You know, I want to do a blue lotus dieta where I'm having blue lotus tea every day for a month and I'm like communing with the tea and I'm spending time sitting with the tea and it's truly a spiritual practice. I want to do a blue lotus only fast.

Where instead of doing a water fast, I only drink Blue Lotus tea for like three or five days. You know, like, I'm looking to have... I'm looking to expand my relationship. Truly thinking of it as... a relationship. With this tea. With this flower.

Jeff Albaum

And did you like, do you remember what the first time like, when did it start? I guess, like when did the fascination start? Or like what? Or can you not really put into words?

Ross

I think I was just laughing at the seeming like absurdity of having this conversation with you. I was talking about my relationship to this tea and like, you know, to this flower. Okay, okay, okay. Back to your question. Your question was, when did it start? When did your addiction start, my friend? When did it start? Okay. The story of this...

Jeff Albaum

You

Yeah, like when did it start? Like you-

Ross

We can take up the whole time me telling you the path to Blue Lettuce, but I don't want to. What I will say, because it's- I'm gonna share this story, Jeff, to show- It's funny, your prior guest, Adi- Adi and I have talked about this quite a bit, understanding when we're in the flow of life. And what- What does that flow feel like, and what happens? And what happens is, you get fuckloads of synchronicities.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Ross

You know, I actually, I saw somebody post about it the other day on Instagram. It's like, four signs you're in the flow of life, and it was babies stare at you, animals come up to you, like, cats and dogs are very friendly to you. You notice a wild amount of synchronicities. And I forget what the fourth one was. But whatever it was, I read them and I'm like, man, those things are nonstop for me, like, happening in spades, you know. And part of that was this.

Jeff Albaum

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Ross

blue lotus. it's like John and I meet, my business partner, we met at the burn, last burn, we're out looking at art with our friend, our good friend Emily Fletcher. And Emily is a really, is an amazing, powerful meditation teacher and energetic witch herself. And, and so

John and I are like, we need to come up with a name. What is the name for the center going to be? And John's business is John does high fidelity sound journeys often with medicine. so, and I'm sure some of your audience will get what that is and some of them won't. so I said, John, the way we should come up with the name for what we're creating is,

Jeff Albaum

.

Ross

Let's go on a journey together. Let's go to Emily's house in upstate New York and let's have Emily facilitate a journey for us. It's like, okay, so we go up there. By the way, I think it's time for us to have some tea.

Jeff Albaum

Okay.

OK.

yeah, we got, yeah, we have to take our first sip. This is my first time ever having blue lotus tea.

Ross

Okay, I got it. I've got my little my little dainty thing here. Oh, that's not I'm not pouring that so well, but

Jeff Albaum

Lechaim.

Ross

Yeah, first I would say like, let's sit with this tea for a second.

just thinking about is there anything that you would welcome more vision or more clarity on?

And if it is, then you can imagine that now and you can hold that intention as we share this blue lettuce tea together.

And mine is just to have some fun with you. There you go. There's my intention. Well, hi, brother.

Jeff Albaum

it. Lechaim.

Ross

So we go up to Emily's and...

I had just been in Bali a few months before and I'm out in a rice field in the Middle East rice paddies with two friends and they're talking about Blue Lotus. And they were talking about this team of women on the Nile working with Blue Lotus. This is months ago. It's January, February, end of January. And I'm not really paying attention because Blue Lotus had no real meaning to me at the time.

Jeff Albaum

Okay.

Ross

Fast forward.

one of the guys I'm out there with sells, he's an alchemist, and he creates these tinctures, these drops, that most of, all of them but one have psilocybin, some type of psilocybin. And I was like, okay, I don't want any with psilocybin. Do you have anything that doesn't have psilocybin? And he said, yes, I have these drops that are for ritual. And they are blue lotus, rose, gold, and vanilla. And I said, okay, I'd like those. And so I get them. Little dropper.

Jeff Albaum

Okay.

Ross

I bring him back, you take him for a ritual. I bring him back, fast forward, we're going up to Emily Fletcher's, John and I, to birth the name in ceremony. And I said, John, we're going to take these drops before. Now, the relationship to those drops is, they were from this guy Victor. Victor Yakari. Victor, I'm with Victor in Bali. Victor happened to go on a trip to Antarctica with my business partner John in November, and they were roommates.

Jeff Albaum

Okay.

Ross

So the guy who gave me these drops happened to randomly fucking be my business partner's roommate on a trip to Antarctica.

Jeff Albaum

And how do you know John? What's the connection between you and John?

Ross

And the interesting thing is, that I hadn't even thought about till now, I know John through Emily Fletcher. She brought him to our little, like, adventure at the Bern. And Emily and I are friends because Emily and I went to Antarctica together five years ago. So actually, it's like the magic of Antarctica bringing us all together in the Blue Lotus together is sort of wild. this is a sprawling conversation here. And, okay, so John and I...

Jeff Albaum

Okay, okay.

Ross

take these drops before our ceremony to birth the name. These drops that came from Victor who was his roommate in Antarctica, like the connectivity of it all. No name comes to either of us during this journey. And a week later, we're like, we took these blue lotus drops though. Blue lotus, is that the name? Something to boot blue lotus? And John's like,

Well, my favorite color is blue. And I'm like, my favorite color is blue, dude. And I thought about it, and I'm like, ooh, House of Blue Lotus. That feels good. Is it the House of Blue Lotus? Is it House of the Blue Lotus? Is it just House of Blue Lotus? And we landed on House of Blue Lotus. And here we are drinking Blue Lotus tea together.

Jeff Albaum

Wow. Dude, okay, and like, you have to, you have to.

Ross

Then, hold on, talk about synchronicities. Then, John and I are both at Envision in Costa Rica, this festival in Costa Rica. We both separately got invited to lead a workshop and speak at Envision. So I'm down there leading a workshop on intention. And I go to say hi to my friend, Vailana, who was eight months, seven or eight months pregnant at the time. She lives in Austin. You're in Austin, know, Aubrey Marcus's wife, Vailana. So I'm there.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Ross

Vi's pregnant. I'm like, haven't seen her since she's been pregnant. I gotta go say hi. I go say hi. I'm talking to her and this guy, Franco. My good buddy Franco Hecci. And I'm telling him about Blue Lotus and Franco's like, dude, do you know there's a Blue Lotus expert standing outside? And I'm like, no, who? And he tells me, I'm like, I know who that guy is. That guy's right outside. And it was this guy, Illip, who I got this set from and who I got this Blue Lotus thing from. He was standing right outside. He gives me all this Blue Lotus stuff.

And he's like, I'm gonna come to New York and help you share Blue Lotus all across New York City. Then I'm in my... So, point is, these synchronicities are happening all the time. And that's how you know you're in flow.

Jeff Albaum

Wow. And dude, you, I like.

Ross

And I'm giving you a fraction of these details and all of these details have such ridiculous amounts of synchronicity. You know?

Jeff Albaum

Let's talk about that. Let's talk about synchronicity. I love that word. That's a really beautiful word. What?

Ross

I gotta be better pouring of this coffee, but.

Jeff Albaum

It's okay, it looks hot. What does synchronicity look like, or what does synchronicity mean to you? Is it like things are coming up and there's just like coincidences that you can't really into words, or what is it to you?

Ross

The first thing that comes to me is.

the things that I seem to need and want.

and I'm really careful around the way I'm using the word want.

just come to me very easily and naturally. And I don't really even need to do anything. I mean, I guess the doing is I'm just being myself, which is also related to it. It's like, the more these synchronicities keep happening, well, one, it's the more they happen,

Jeff Albaum

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ross

Okay, I'll back up for a second. I had a career coach, Maggie Mistal. Mistal, may be saying her last name wrong. M-I-S-T-A-L. Maggie's amazing, we're still friends. In 2012, Maggie and I got in an argument. I was arguing with my career coach I was paying good money to, and she said, have to believe it to see it. And I said, no, that's not who I am. I need to see it to believe it.

I'm not somebody that blazes the trail. I like to walk a path that I've seen other people walk in life. Then I feel more confident. You know, I'm not the guy to make his own trail in life. That's what I said. I argued with her. And here I am telling you, all these years later, I have done a whole fucking 180. Whole 180. Whole 180. And so, the reason I'm bringing that up.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Really?

Okay.

Yeah.

Ross

is synchronicity. The more I believe, Jeff, I keep seeing these synchronicities and then it strengthens my belief. And then the more my belief strengthens, the more synchronicities keep happening and the more I keep seeing and then the belief strengthens even more and then I keep seeing more and it's a beautiful self-reinforcing circuit of belief, seeing, and

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Ross

belief things happening and me seeing them. There's also the concept to me of like, hey these synchronicities could be happening but I might not see them. You know, some people may say, well these things aren't happening for me and I'm like, well actually they may be happening for you, just might not see them.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Mmm... Mm-hmm.

Hmm

Ross

Or maybe less of them are happening for you because you're not living as authentically as you possibly can be. And so that's what I would probably pair this with is I think your question was like, what is the synchronicities feel like? How do you know when they're happening? However you phrased it, they are so parallel for me of the more authentically I am myself.

Jeff Albaum

That's awesome, dude.

Ross

Like just a pure fucking me. I am.

And it makes me think about like...

Really the only relationship advice I ever give and I'm not married so I mean you know I mean I guess that doesn't mean I don't can't give relationship advice but like whether it's about a relationship or a job I say the same thing to people. Does this person, this other person or this job help you be the you-ist you?

Jeff Albaum

Mmm.

Ross

And what is that another way of saying? Does it help you be more authentically you? But I just like that idea of like, are you a you-er version of you? Are the you-est you, you can be? Does this person or this job bring that out of Jeff? Or is it neutral? I mean, it might be neutral. Or is it negative? And for me, I could look back on my prior romantic relationships that didn't end in marriage and I'm like, no, those...

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

Right.

Ross

They did not bring more Ross out of Ross. I actually was less of myself. I was less authentically me and probably some of them like, okay, cool. That's the wrong relationship for me. Easy. Now, and then you can think about a job. I'm like, does this job bring the me out of me? What I am doing literally, I know it's cliche to sound. It isn't a job. I'm just being me running a spiritual center is not a job. I'm just doing me.

Jeff Albaum

Right. Right.

Right, right.

Right.

Ross

I show up every day and I exist as me.

Jeff Albaum

Dude, you told me actually that. You told me that same line, I think, was a year and a half ago or so. I love it. I think it's so cool. like, think it's, it's all, can you talk a little bit more about like your previous, like I feel like you've lived so many lives, but if you hear the way you talk now, I would think like, oh, okay, like you're, you know, this hippie guy. You've like been doing this all your life and like whatever, but you've had such a 180 and like, I wanna know about the transition and like the,

Like, how did you start thinking about this? Because you had this other career, this other life, where you left. And like, that's really hard. It's really hard for someone to leave. And you weren't just leaving because you were like, I don't like it. You were amazing at it.

Ross

I have left several lives, although in a way I still feel like the same person, but Yeah, I...

I was going to be an investment banker. I did all my internships in college around investment banking. And I was in my first interview. And the guy was like, well, you know what our life is like. And I'm like, yeah, I know, because I had friends that did it. And it was like 110 hours a week. And you sleep under your desk twice a week. And you have no life. But like by the time you're 27 or 28, you're making a million bucks a year. This was early 2000s. And I'm like, I remember asking my, I get out of the interview. And I was like,

What do I even want this money for? And I'm like, I want this money because I want to have a family and I want to give the family what I had growing up, which I mean, my dad didn't make a million bucks a year either, but like we had what we needed. We had enough. We always had enough, my family. And I'm like, well, I just want my family to have enough, you know?

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Sure, sure.

Ross

This is became my I'm 21 years old like interviewing for a bit. And I'm like that isn't that what I want the money. I don't want to be I don't have I don't have some like desire to be rich. And and I'm like am I about to throw away my 20s for money sacrifice that was I thought about to sacrifice my 20s for money and I'm like yeah that's what this feels like. And I'm like what do I want to do. I just want to ski every day. I want to live in the mountains and ski.

And so I took myself out of the running for every banking job I was interviewing for. I told that job, I was like, I don't want that job. I didn't even go to the rest of my interviews. I took myself out of them. And I moved to Aspen and I got a job waiting tables and bartending, you know, and, and skied.

Jeff Albaum

What did your family and friends say when you told them?

Ross

My dad was like, I just spent fucking 200 grand on your Duke education for this, you know? And my mom was like, you know, let him have a season out there doing his thing. I'm sure it'll be... I think her thinking was like, when is this gonna be over? And I'm like, it'll be over when I feel it's over, mom, you know? I mean, like, I love my parents. They were generally... My mom was totally supportive. You know how parents are. I grew up in a small town. Everybody knows each other. My parents just want to know what can they tell their friends when they're at dinner.

You know, like, what are they telling their friends their oldest son is doing? You know, like, he he flopped out of life? You know, I can't wait for my mom to listen to this. And she's going to be like, that's not how we felt. We just want you to be happy. Which is true. They do. They do. They're the best. I have great parents. I'm very lucky. And so that's so I'm out there. I'm in Colorado. I'm doing that. And I ended up out there for three years. And then I.

Jeff Albaum

Right, right, right.

Right.

Ross

was like, okay, I'm restless and I'm bored. I had gotten injured. tore my MCL my last year of being there. And I'm like, I'm ready for something more. And I moved to Phoenix and I started a company flipping houses with one of my buddies, Joe Diaz, one of my best friends from college. We do that for a year. We're shitty business partners. We were best friends, roommates and business partners and had the same skill set. Horrible combo for a business partner. I know you've had a business partner in real estate also.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm

Ross

And you probably know, we checked every box of what not to have in your business partnership. We're like, let's just fucking break all the rules. of course it did not work. You know, it did not work. We're lucky we're still friends. so then I was in real estate for 10 years in Phoenix and I was making a lot of money and I was playing golf every Wednesday, every Friday, every Saturday and Sunday.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

You

Ross

Playing golf three or four days a week. Living it up. Going out all the time. Having a blast. But I'm like... This is not intellectually gratifying or... or... satisfying.

There was no depth and challenge to it. And I'm like, I don't want to keep doing this. I got... So I end up pulling the plug on that. Also, similarly, Jeff, there was a money trap of like, hey, if I stay in this job, I think I was 30, 31 at the time, I was like, I'm going to be making a million bucks a year by the time I'm 36 or 37. And then I'm going to be trapped by money. How am I going to pull out of that?

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Ahem.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Ross

You know, like literally once you create that life and and I saw the traps of of the life of money. Phoenix is a very boomer bust real estate town and I remember. The boom. And then I remember the bust and the bust in my office. There were all these guys that were in there like late 30s and early 40s that were making. You know high six figure low seven figure salary in Phoenix.

20 years ago, 15 years ago, which was a lot of money. And, and, I remember the crash hit, and half of them got divorced. And, you know, they had to give up their cars, and they had to sell their house, and their kids would have to get pulled out of private school, and literally half of them got divorced. And I remember seeing this, crumbling of lives around me because the money was, they were trapped in this

money game and then the money was gone and I was just observing this and I'm like, I don't want to be in that. And I grew up with a family where like my parents were big savers. My dad was famous for saying to my brother and I like, well, you've never seen their bank account. Meaning like, don't know who's living check to check and you don't know who saved up a lot of money. And he was in the camp of

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Ross

save up a lot of money. You never know, because you never know. You never know what you will need any money for. You never know. And so that was his very old school Jewish, frankly, mentality. You know, we've come from a people who have been on the run for a long time and it's like, you got to save where you can. So, that, I was like, I don't want to get caught in this trap. So I pull, extricate myself out of that. I go back to business school.

Jeff Albaum

Yeah.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Ross

I get involved in this wellness real estate company, Delos, while I'm in business school. It was unbelievable. Like I was like, my God, this is fucking so cool. These people, this founder, Paul Schala, had come up with this idea of like, we spend 90 % of our time indoors. Why are we as a real estate industry only focused on how the built environment impacts environmental health? Why is no one focused on its impact on human health?

This is also, this is, you know, 15 years ago. No one was thinking about it. And, and he was like, I'm going to make a business on this looking at light quality, air quality, light, air, sound, nutrition, all these psychological, physical, emotional aspects of an indoor space, dialing them up and dialing them down so that the space is optimal for human health. And so I'm in that business. I'm in it for five. And I started in it. Good story here of like, I went to them.

Jeff Albaum

Yeah. Yeah.

Ross

My friend was an investor in the company and I went to one of the founders and I was like, I'm going to business school in a few months. I want to come work for you. Don't pay me a penny. He's like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, what you guys are doing is so fucking cool. I just want to help and I don't need to be paid. And so I went and I helped for two months every day, you know, for free as like a free little intern at 33 years old. I was like a little free intern and

Jeff Albaum

Dude, that's awesome.

Ross

And so I ended up working with the company for five years and it's amazing. the certification that we wrote, the well-building standard that I was one of the authors of, is now in like 140 or 150 countries. It's fucking dope shit.

Jeff Albaum

That's insane. And this was just like, what do you remember? Like what initially attracted you to that in the first place? You're like, this is just like, I've never thought about this before. This is cool. I want to be involved.

Ross

Yeah, I was literally like, this is the future. This is fucking it. Like, this idea that like, whoa, like my dad was a doctor growing up. This idea that the building, that our home and our office could be our doctor. That's how I saw it. what if the space that we exist in becomes our doctor? Right now, our spaces are actively poisoning us.

Jeff Albaum

Yeah.

Hmm

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ross

I could walk in your house right now and I could find five things in your house that are right now poisoning you. I'm not even saying my house is perfect. We could go in mine too. But I, you know, I could look at like, I could look at different materials that are off gassing things and polluting the air. could look at you prob maybe you have scented candles in your bathroom that are very, very likely unless you're sourcing them from a certain place, poisoning your air quality, you know.

Jeff Albaum

Like what?

Ross

We can look at different cleaning supplies. We can look at the hand soap you're using. We can look at the different lotions you're putting on your face. We could look at the light. My guess is the light in your house is the same wavelength in the morning and at night. But as you can guess, your body doesn't want the same light in the morning and at night. Your body wants a light in the morning that helps you release cortisol, suppress melatonin. Well, you want the opposite at 7, 8 p.m. at night. But my guess is your lights in your house are always the same.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sure.

Ross

Think of like, it's three in the morning and you get up to pee and you go in the bathroom. What happens if you turn the lights on? You're shocked, right? Total shock. Right. Why do people have those little bathroom nightlights? It's so you don't shock your system. Think about it. You're shocking your system. Yeah, exactly. So like now we built a whole company around those type of things.

Jeff Albaum

Yeah, bad news.

Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Okay.

Dude, that's awesome.

Ross

So I was with that company for five years. We grew it. Now the now the certifications in 140 or 150 countries. It's awesome. And and that got me on the spiritual path because Deepak Chopra was on our board. And one day Deepak came in to lead a meditation in a little room of 12 people. And I sat right next to him. And it was my first time ever meditating. Was in this little 12 person room sitting next to Deepak.

And I was like, oh man, this is cool. I like this meditation stuff. And so I started.

Jeff Albaum

It's like someone's first basketball lesson with LeBron James. Like, basketball, it's okay.

Ross

It is what it was. Yeah. Yeah. And so I started doing it five minutes a day, 10 minutes a day, 20 minutes a day. I started reading books and like I start going down the spiritual path and I started going to the Open Center, which was at the time the largest and longest running urban spiritual center in Europe and North America.

Jeff Albaum

And you had moved to New York at this point? OK.

Ross

I've been in New York. I've been in New York. Yeah. And, and so the open center, eventually through real estate, actually through the urban land Institute, this is why I like, this is a good example of you got to show up in life and you got to like be of service. So it's like, I'm on a committee for ULI around healthy spaces, volunteering my time on this committee. And I meet this guy, Michael Horst, and Mike was on the board of the open center and Mike says to me,

I want you to join our board." And I remember, I was like, me? Are you? I was like, I'm not important enough to be on your board. I literally said, I am not important enough to be on your board. And he was like, no, no, no, you're exactly who we need on the board. And I was like, I don't think so. And eventually I say yes, and I joined the board. And then six months into me being on the board, we realized we needed to fire the president. And they were going to close down.

And the founder, was the main donor, Walter, who passed away. Walter, love you. And Walter says, well, guys, we're at a board meeting. He says, it's been a great 36 years. We're out of money. We need to move on from this president. I think we pat ourselves on the back, say mission accomplished and close our doors. And I'm hearing this and I'm like, keep in mind, this is a spiritual center doing 450 programs a year.

with a 50 person staff hosting every major world teacher in the world. know, that's been the history of this center is every major teacher in the world when they came to New York, they came to the Open Center. And so I said, this is me and three guys who are like 80 years old. I'm like, guys, this conversation is fucking insane. And I remember saying is fucking insane. And

And I said, what we do has never been more accepted by the media, by society, and has never been more needed and more important than it is right now. We should only be talking about expanding our reach, not shutting our doors. Expanding our impact. And they were like, well, what are we going to do? We're out of money and we just said we need to fire Leslie. And I was like, I'm going to drop everything I'm doing and I'm going to take over. I'm going to run it. So I dropped everything I was doing and I ran the Open Center. I was the CEO for four years.

And that's how things happen. That's how things happen. So it's interesting when you said, when you were like, the Deepak meditation story, the similar story for me is if somebody had said to you, like, yes, I had this, I was running this thing in Tokyo, but that wasn't for that long. It's basically like if someone said to you, Jeff, your dream is to run, your dream is to work in

soft drinks. If you said you say I really want to work in the soft drink industry and somebody's like how about for your first job you're the CEO of Pepsi.

Jeff Albaum

Right.

Ross

How about that? I'm like, okay, you know, that's what it was. So it's been a wild ride and it doesn't feel like work, you know.

Jeff Albaum

So okay, during your time as CEO of the Open Center, so.

Ross

Yeah, think what was the purpose? mean, I get you're asking these questions. I think there was a there's a lesson for me. There is like I guess multi-seat in fact me reflecting this to you is allowing me to see some of this of like walking away from money and the the the the in ensnarement the trap of doing something that I don't feel that good about

Jeff Albaum

Hmm

Ross

because of the money and then getting trapped in the money. And I guess if I were to reflect what have been the most powerful and impactful decisions of my life, that's what I would say it's been.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

That's a pretty good one.

Ross

And I'm not an anti-capitalist person. I was a fucking econ major and I went to business school. mean, like, I'm not, you know.

Jeff Albaum

Well, so this is what I was going to say. I feel like you have this cool relationship with money where it's like, is, you're not like, oh, I don't need money. Money is not important. I don't care. But you you understand that you have this relationship with money such that like, oh, I don't want to over-index on like, do something that I don't like for money. Right? So what I wanted to ask you was like, when you were running the open center, feel like it's, I don't know if it's common is the right word, but like you're in charge, you're the head of this global.

spiritual organization and yet you're pretty new to spirituality, right? So like you're probably doing stuff that's, you your day's probably pretty stressful is what I'm getting at. And like you need to show up as like this person who has some level of like, I don't know, serendipity or maybe I'm getting that wrong, but like, you what I mean? You know I'm getting at?

Ross

I Let me see if I can name it in a different way. I mean, I wouldn't say I was like new to spirituality. I would say I was not a multi-decade practitioner, you know.

Jeff Albaum

Okay, okay, fair enough.

Ross

I think also there's a...

You know how when you're like in your 20s and you're in meetings and you're generally the younger person in the meeting and and you're afraid of not knowing something. And then eventually you just cross this mark in your life where you're like, oh, I can be confident in my lack of knowing something. And then all of a sudden you're comfortable in a meeting and you're comfortable being like, I don't know. And saying it out loud to like, and not feeling like, oh, people are going to think less of me. It's like, no, it's actually in a way like a

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Sure, sure.

Ross

confident thing of you're okay with your security around saying you don't know.

It was like, I don't need to be the expert in any of these spiritual modalities. I just need to be me.

Jeff Albaum

Hmm.

Ross

What, like, the job didn't require, my job wasn't being the spiritual expert. My job is shepherding an organization and leading people, holding people. I've been holding people and leading people since I was a little fucking kid. You know, so in that way, I'd say I had 40 years of practice at it, you know? I mean, if you ask,

If you ask my mother, which I've asked her, why did my brother and I get along so well? My brother's three years younger than me and he's my best friend and he's been my best friend since he was born. And I'm going to go see him right after this interview. And my mom said, because you love to lead and your brother loved to follow.

She said, you two were a natural pair. You know, and so I would say I was training for that job running the open center since I was three years old.

Jeff Albaum

Gotcha. Gotcha. No, that that. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense.

Ross

I wasn't really new to the job.

But I'm saying, but combining that with like, I'm not trying to pretend I've read every fucking book and gone to every retreat and done all this and know all the Sanskrit words for this and that, I don't know. And that's okay. That's okay.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

What, this is gonna be kind of a big question. I don't mean it as a, well, whatever. What does spirituality mean to you? Like when you think of spirituality, what is that?

Ross

Yeah.

I love that you asked it because I used to have an interview show where I would ask people that very question on the street. I do street interviews. say, does spirituality mean to you? does it show up in your life? Spiritual practice to me,

is deepening our relationship to ourselves, to each other, and to the planet.

So, again, the purpose of any spiritual practice to deepen your relationship to yourself, to each other, and to the planet. That's what life is all about. That's what the point of the practice is. So I would, I would... God.

Jeff Albaum

And so not in a real, go.

Ross

I think I just define spiritual practice maybe more than spirituality that I have a more I have a tougher time

putting a pin on that definition. I'd say the most common answers people would give me when I asked them was like some version of oneness. And I would say that version of oneness is what I just, the connection, our connection to ourselves, each other and the planet and understanding it's all the same. And then you could go down a path of like non-dualism, which we talk about in our partial group sometimes. Non-dualism, that idea of there is no dual.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Ross

There is no me and you. It's all one. The entire universe and universes and everything that is, is all one big living breathing organism.

Jeff Albaum

Hmm.

Does God come into play there? Like does that concept come into play or not necessarily? Not in your framework.

Ross

Well, I'm not gonna fashion myself an expert on nondualism. I would say in the nondual... Yeah.

Jeff Albaum

Not necessarily non-dualism, just in your framework of spiritual practice.

Ross

For me, does God come into my framework? You know, I just had a buddy over, my buddy Andy Lee, right before we got on this call, and Andy and I were talking a little bit about it, I...

I don't have a strong curiosity to understand the way everything works. I don't feel that called to like discern and decide for myself does some version of God exist and what is that version. It's not... yeah, I'm just not attr- I'm interested. I'm mildly curious. I'm not that curious.

It's because it's just like I guess I just don't really feel the need to know You know like so what do I mean do I I believe that there is a Some power some force Some universal force Some people is that what God is? Yes. I think that's the expression of God

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Ross

To me, it's like if you want to get into the semantics of do we want to call it God or like a universal force? I guess I don't really care that much. To decide which one of those it is. Or is it something else? Or is there no? Is there no force at all? Now, that would be a different take.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Ross

I don't believe that. I do believe there is some... But that force may just be like nature. The intelligence of nature. The intelligence of the universe. Like, literally like the way the fucking universe works. How does it work like it does? Okay, physics. Well, how do those physics work the way they do? I don't even feel that qualified to go down this road of this kind of...

Jeff Albaum

Sure, sure.

Right.

What did you say at the beginning? It doesn't matter.

Ross

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It doesn't matter. I mean, I guess you can see this is where we've approached the limitation of my understanding around this, and that's because I don't go read books on it, because I'm just not really that interested. I don't, like... I believe. I believe shit happens. I don't need to know how.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Interesting. But but then the other

Ross

Here's, I believe that I keep seeing more synchronicities and then the more I see the more keep happening. I believe that. That I believe. How, now that's the question is, okay, we could say on like a quantum level, if we go quantum mechanics level like, is my intention and my belief

Jeff Albaum

Right, right. Well, because yeah, it's.

Ross

affecting the field of reality. And so then what I... this would be... I'm not huge into manifestation. I think the term manifestation has been bastardized and I'm not going to get on my soapbox about the dangers of modern-day manifestation, like that would technically, I guess, be a form of manifestation of like I have a belief or an intention and then the field senses that. And then so that

my belief or my intention literally changes the field of existence, the quantum field.

So then there's the idea of like, do I need to understand the mechanics of how that works to believe in it? No. I mean, if I see the result...

Do I need to get how works? Do I need to know how the sausage is made? I don't know. I'm tasting the sausage. It tastes good. Coat. Kosher. Coat, we're talking kosher sausage here, clearly, Jeff.

Jeff Albaum

No, you don't. Right, you drive the car. You don't even know how to build it. Of course, of course, of course. No, I hear that. I hear that. So then at the same time, though, then how do you... So, okay, if you believe it like, okay, shit happens. I don't need to know how or why. At the same time, synchronicity happens. I don't need to know how or why, but I just need to have the instinct to follow when I do notice. Is that it?

Ross

I think the work for me is how do I clear my antenna and clear my vision so that when they happen, I see them.

Jeff Albaum

Hmm. Okay.

Ross

Which is, for me, clearing away... The whole point of spiritual practice is what I mean, like I said about deepening our connection to ourselves, each other and the planet. But it's like, what is it? And it's really just clearing away the bullshit. You're clearing, you're cleansing, you're clearing like an onion... The layers of bullshit that have been conditioned upon you by your existence in this world since birth.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Ross

Prior to birth, prior to birth, you know, I just saw a study the other day. Babies within several days can differentiate between languages. And how? Because the languages have different vibrations and they were surrounded by one language while they were in the womb and they received those vibrations and so they that language feels different to them.

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Hmm

That's crazy.

Ross

Makes sense though.

Jeff Albaum

So, yeah, I guess I've I've never, yeah.

Ross

Think about it. You're speaking, your voice is sending out a vibration, that vibration works its way into the mother's womb and the baby receives that vibration. So that is a familiar cadence of a language and a familiar vibration.

Jeff Albaum

Sure. So what do you do with that?

or just that since birth you've had stuff come up and you need, like the work of spirituality or spiritual practice is to remove the bullshit.

Ross

Yes, it's I guess that was an example of we're being conditioned from our environment since pre birth. Now, many of those conditionings. That's what causes us stress and anxiety and depression and blah, blah, blah, blah. There's nothing wrong inside any of us. It's the it's society doing shit to us that then changes us.

Jeff Albaum

.

Yeah, yeah.

So let me ask you on this thought of...

Ross

I mean, people can be born with certain, I don't want to discount, birth defects, neurochemical issues, those are real. I'm saying for the most part, most people's issues are caused by societal conditioning. Your environment, your environment is society conditioning. And so what's the point of spirituality, spiritual practice? Fucking peeling those layers away.

Jeff Albaum

Sure.

Sure.

Sure. Yeah.

Hmm But why why is it like I guess this is the question I have for you though is like on one hand Okay, you can walk through life and you know You're walking down the street and a car splashes water on you from the puddle on the ground like damn it like that sucks shit happens, right? But someone else might look but then the other hand is like dude you're having all these like the synchronicity and you're seeing Lotus everywhere and like all this stuff is happening. You're like you're just vibing

Ross

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff Albaum

But you could look at either of those and be like, I got splashed on water, I'm doing something wrong. Like I need to change. So why one, you follow and you're kind of, it's like the positive association with one, you're like, ooh, I need to change path, right, I'm doing something wrong. It's the opposite of synchronicity. Does that make sense?

Ross

You're saying if something happens like the water being splashed on you that is perceived as negative, that I don't, that I don't seek some deeper meaning in it, but if it's positive I do? Is that what you're saying?

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You kind of know where you're in flow because, and I agree with you, don't disagree, because good things are happening, but you could look at a bad thing happening and be like, damn, maybe I need to change something else in my life because I'm not in this flow state. You know what I mean?

Ross

Because good things are happening

Yeah, that does happen. I would say, right, if a lot of bad things are happening to me, then I am being like, then I would be like, OK, I need to make some changes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, look, I feel like if if my spiritual teacher were on this call here, I who I meet with every other week, his name is Neil Allen. love Neil. You know, Neil and I talk a lot about like.

Jeff Albaum

Got it, got it, got it, okay. Okay, so it does go both ways.

Ross

In some spiritual paths, it's getting to the point where there is no such thing as good or bad. The water being splashed on me is neither good nor bad. Me running into Illip at Envision to talk Blue Lotus is neither good or bad. I'm not necessarily saying I follow this path because it's a hard thing for me. It's easier for me to be like, the water is not bad. Yes, fine. You know.

It's harder for me to say the other thing is not good.

Jeff Albaum

Right, right, right.

Ross

I'm like, what do you mean it's not good? That was good. How can I say that was neutral? It was good. And this may be, maybe I don't know enough of the answers to be like, oh, no, no, no, no. Here's what the sages would say. They would say blah, blah, whatever. I'm just saying, yeah, I feel you on this recognition of maybe we hold the perceived negative different than the perceived positive.

Jeff Albaum

Right.

Ross

I don't know.

Jeff Albaum

Hey, shit happens, who knows?

Ross

Shit happened, yeah, that's the Forrest Gump thing, he made those t-shirts around it. But... Also, like, when negative things happen... Well, I think so, okay. So one is, we could look at something and say, there is no negative or positive to it. The water being splashed on you is neither negative or positive. The other is, we could say, okay, it wasn't a pleasurable experience, but did I learn anything? Is there a lesson for me there?

Jeff Albaum

Right.

Ross

Yeah, the lesson for me there is... Alright, I'll give you example of that one. New York. I live in New York. Sometimes New Yorkers, we stand very close. We don't stand back on the sidewalk when we went across the street. We're like up on the street. And if it's raining sometimes, you could get splashed on. Cars driving by. Well, you don't need to learn that lesson that many times before you're like, hey, I need to keep my distance a little bit so I don't get splashed on. So, okay, so me getting splashed on in that first time...

teaches me some lesson and so isn't that lesson good?

Jeff Albaum

It's they're good nor bad. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

Ross

Well, no, I've been up saying like, okay.

Okay, House... We're not even... I don't know when you're releasing this episode. We're not out in the public sphere yet, House of Blue Lotus. That being said, I have put out our website, but... You can get on our email list, HouseofBlueLotus.org. I spent two hours vibe coding. by the way, you're the one that taught me how to build a website. I forgot. I spent... Thank you, Jeff. Thank you, Jeff. It's my website.

my website, my Vibe Coding website, coach and mentor.

Jeff Albaum

Dude, that is a very much overstatement. I sent you three links that were one sentence each and you did the rest.

Ross

I used anti-gravity and I built our website in about two hours and it is basically a landing page and describes a little bit about what we do. There's a reason for that and that's because I'm not trying to say that much about it yet. We'll have our public launch in probably September and it'll be a three it'll be a 300 person blue lotus tea ceremony and that's all I'm gonna say. It's gonna be way more and it's gonna be amazing.

Jeff Albaum

Okay.

Ross

But you can get on our email list, houseofbluelotus.org. I would love for people to get an email list. And you can follow my Instagram, because I'll be talking more about it. it's just at Ross Guttler, R-O-S-S G-U-T-T-L-E-R.

Jeff Albaum

Okay, awesome. Well, thank you, man. I appreciate you. You're the best. This is awesome.

Ross

I love you brother.

Jeff Albaum

Love you too, man. Looking forward to catching up soon. Bye, everybody.

Ross

See you buddy.