Why AI Makes Math More Important, Not Less w/ Chris Roberts

Chris Roberts

That it is possible to have each child early on develop a good relationship with math. It is possible to do that. I think some people along the way, their relationship with math, sometimes because they didn't get along with a teacher, or because who knows what this or that and the other, it got off course. And I believe it's possible to have a good relationship with math.

I describe that in the book that I just published in July. Math Education in the Age of AI. A long subtitle, What Music Education Solves That Math Education Forgot. And it's part autobiographical about how my relationship with math was developed. There are sound educational psychologists and behavioralists cited in there about how each step along my mathematical journey had solid.

grounding how I had a foundation that was built and I'm talking from the age of two and three, you know, counting to a hundred, from watching Schoolhouse Rock when it came out when I was four or five. This is, you know, the early mid-70s when we were a captive Saturday morning cartoon audience and learning was fun because of those, you know, songs. And so by the time I got to kindergarten, my multiples of three and my multiples of five were solid.

that's not as common these days. I hope that we sort of return to that. I don't think it's that

bad, you know, through playing games. my mom taught me how to play dominoes when I was five and I beat her the first game. Not because I was, you boy genius. I knew my multiples of five. So it was, you know, a safe, comfortable place. Always like Yahtzee. And there were many other, you know, numbers game that was just felt safe. And if you lost, fine, you just keep trying and you keep developing. And that helps develop a good relationship with math. That's probably what I'm most excited about with these tools that I'm developing is to help them ha

Not just be friendly with it, but welcome it. And so I think you can build on that relationship just like you build on the skills. And so that's what motivates me right now to do what I'm doing.

Jeff Albaum

Hm. And and can you break down 'cause I I've seen a a couple of your products, but I'm sure there's some that I'm missing. Can you break down what the the ecosystem looks like, you know, today in August twenty twenty six?

Chris Roberts

Sure. the top umbrella is the 501c3 that I am trying to run these things through so that they can stay free for students and teachers. there are many sort of obstacles on ed tech and educational tools. You know, does the the student have to subscribe, or the teacher or the school or school district?

Must it be in an app store versus a browser? All these decisions I went or I took into architecting the thing, I wanted it accessible. I wanted someone, even if they didn't have a computer, a phone with an app store, they could go to a public library and just in any browser be able to get on and use it. And so to do that, it was a very, I'd say a tough decision. It didn't take me long to do that. I said these things need to be free and accessible.

If you are truly an educator at heart, I kind of feel like the Hippocratic oath with doctors that I'm trying to educate everyone. so I'm looking for alternative ways to continue to fund it you know operationally through certain means. But the charity is at the top because I want it to be free in

When you have a charity, you're able to apply for grants, you're able to do other things, and so that's where it starts. But then Classic Math Games. classicmath games.com is sort of the umbrella for these tools that I'm doing right now. The one that I launched in May is what times what. And it's an odd name, but look for domain names, I dare you. But people actually Google what times what equals

144. What times what equals whatever. And so I was able to get the whole family of what times what, what plus what, minus, divided by and all that. so right now there is what times what. And it is basically for multiplication fluency. And there's so much, it's not just a little game, it is an entire ecosystem for students, for teachers.

it's there's some amazing stuff in there. I'm working on a couple of new features right now that I'm just really excited about. But the adoption has been fast, especially after school's gotten back. I did a lot of building over the summer after a short pilot at the end of the previous school year when kids were giving up their recess to play. And you know, each day this week as school's been in, it's been a new record high number of games each day. There are folks in Australia.

in the UK and Canada, Africa, and in the same day I saw folks from Manila to Minnesota literally on their plane. But the because of my experience in the classroom and I've built things for teachers where they could print out an individual student's thing to hand to a parent, to have a parent teacher conference. That's how you know a t a real teacher has done the development on this. Whenever you're thinking, okay, what does the teacher what what can help them?

the most. And so I built many things in there. What plus what is next after the development on this, and I'm really excited about that. There's going to be more developmental things because it needs to be. They are developing more. but I guess one other thing is that the domain multiplication B points to a component within what times what. Within what times what you can set up tournaments among people.

Round robin tournaments, bracket tournaments, but a multiplication B. Because I was trying to solve a problem. When I was teaching those six classes or 120 students of remedial algebra students, and I realized that one of the reasons they were hitting a wall was because they didn't know their times tables. And it's assumed that you do when you're trying to do some of these other operations in algebra. I thought to myself, in my planning period, in a little over a year ago now.

This needs to be more popular than spelling bees. Because if it was, if it was fun and challenging for them to practice their multiplication fluency, they may do it and then get better at it, and positive things follow. So I created a multiplication bee, which is it doesn't require a staff of people like a spelling bee. One person can set this up at a school. There are schools that are committed to doing it this year. I can't wait. But because

This isn't just a game with flashcards because there's many little math games. You'll you search there's many and they use the keyboard, or you know, you do the keyboard and you erase figures. that's not with this. There is a keyboard mode, but the power in the part the kids really love is that it's speech recognition or voice recognition. And the way I architected it, it can go as fast as the person goes. If you're doing flashcards, there's a human limit on how fast a person.

Can accurately get a flashcard and show it and and do that. There's a there are human error and limits in that. This there aren't. And each game's only 30 seconds. And when I started doing it, I hit 30 in 30 seconds. Imagine flashcards doing 30 in 30 seconds. That's a pretty good clip. But then I got to 40 and I got to 45. And one day I hit 50 in 30 seconds. And let me tell you, I

Which makes me also think, I think I'm the guy to build this. Because for whatever reason, at this age, and you could do the math if I graduated in eighty-six, you know, we're talking about forty years later, still enjoy this bit of math. And the fact that if you are fluent, and that's what we're talking about, fluency in in math, fluent with mathematics, or you your times tables or your multiplication facts, then when you get to algebra and you're having to factor or

Solve quadratics by factoring, you don't have to like, well, what's your strategy for figuring out what times what is 21? What's your strategy? You just know it and you can get onto the more abstract thinking that math education really is. It's not about the computation, it's really about can you think abstractly? So that you can guide these AI tools that we've got, because AI is going to be able to compute anything instantly. And if it can compute anything instantly, well, where's the value that the human brings?

Jeff Albaum

Mm-hmm.

Chris Roberts

In the thinking, where does thinking developed? The abstract thinking and math education, music education too. and you can't get there unless you're fluent, unless you can do these other operations. And so my analysis was go back, try to help the folks in elementary have a fun, challenging way to develop fluency so that things will follow in their future. And so the multiplication B is part of it. in the book, I also talk about having a culture of math fluency that I experienced.

and how folks might could do that. But I'm trying to create tools to foster all of that and evangelize and be excited about that because I don't think we can have enough people being excited about.

Jeff Albaum

When you say math fluency versus the the computation versus the abstract thinking, that's super interesting to me. And I will freely admit that basically up until like I was in calculus, I still didn't truth be told, I couldn't tell you what the purpose of calculus is today. I think it's something to do with like measuring shapes or, you know, measuring how, you know, distances and lines and ways that on curves or something. truth be told, I don't really know. And so mo so much of my math career was spent

Trying to understand the computation parts of it and trying to figure out what the what the how do I do this? How does this work, et cetera? That I I I didn't have room to think about the abstractness of of what I was actually trying to do. So can you break down for for the the people like me who maybe didn't understand or didn't grasp like the beauty of math itself? Can you give a quick sales pitch on why should someone care about math?

Chris Roberts

Well, first of all, I think you should give yourself a little more credit. You were generally covering what you know part of calculus is about. So give yourself a little credit on that. and I I believe this was I spoke to it in the in the previous question and answer, but here's how I think about it. And and put it in terms that people may understand, is that now there's a couple of things.

People always ask, why do I need to know this? where am I going to use this? Because they're, you know, you're not gonna factor trinomial in your day job. You're just not. That's not the point of it. And that's where people need to understand that I could, and there are classes that are very concrete that deal with concrete, that deal with wood, that deal with

you know, the physical things that we need to do and thank God for them. in fact I highly recommend them. if you see what's the the construction going on in our area, that's a very worthwhile great career. Highly encourage that.

But if you learn a particular skill, it's good for that particular skill.

When do you think abstractly so that you can solve some problem you haven't encountered? Okay, because skills are great. I'm gonna do this, but when do you start training your brain to think abstractly so that when something new comes along, how are you gonna handle it? How are you gonna be able to identify it? Start analyzing it, figure out, there's two or three strategies, pick one, go there, and what if it's a multi-step problem? Okay.

I say that my the most important class I ever had in high school was geometry, not because of the triangles, but because there are geometric proofs. And if you start at one point and you have to get to another point, and it's not just one step to get there, it might take 10 steps, but they are logical, dependent steps, and you have to communicate them clearly. Turns out

Jeff Albaum

Yeah.

Chris Roberts

In this 30 years years of software development, that's every IT project I've ever worked on. It's because I'm here and I've got to get here. But you can't just get there directly. You have to take logical, sequential, dependent steps and communicate them along the way. That's why geometry was the most important class I ever had, because that was training me to solve these IT problems. Okay. Of course I didn't know it at a time, it was mid 80s. You know, you don't know, but you just go and you think.

I'm I know how to think in in multi-step problems that that are abstract. Now, what are the classes doing that? Well, this is the value in math education because you're you're learning it's it's like altitude training for athletes. Whenever they train the altitude, then they come back down, there's more you know oxygen in their blood now, and they're able to do more. Math is kind of like altitude training for the brain. If you are

in geometry and you're learning multi-step problems or in the these other things and you're thinking abstractly, then you come back down and do something concrete, you're able to handle it without difficulty or as much difficulty. And so math education is not necessarily about the computation. It hadn't always been just about the computation. It's been about the thinking skills that are developed. And I'm hoping when people say, well, why am I studying this? Why do I need to know this?

it's because it's developing you as a thinker. If you can do this, you can do some of these other things that are come along. and as far as AI goes, we don't know exactly the form of the tools in the future. We have some hints, but there's something new every day about them. We shouldn't, you know, train the one particular tool. You should train how to think abstractly so you can handle any tool that's put in front of you. I think that's been the value for me because tools have changed since I've been in IT over 30 years. How can I adapt? How can I, well,

I believe my math and music education where I'm thinking abstractly. And by the way, I I point this out in the book, music very similar. You're learning your fingerings and your scales, and then you're able to operate, you know, abstractly. You're interpreting these abstract symbols and then doing something with it, with with your brain. Same thing in math. You're interpreting these abstract symbols and doing something with your brain. And so after you think abstractly, you can handle any situation or tool that might be put in front of you or solve any problem that comes in front of you.

in the future. And so that's my sales pitch. Awesome.

Jeff Albaum

I'd I'd buy. It's a that's a pretty good sales pitch. Do you do you think every do you think everybody is a a quote unquote math person? Do you think everyone has the ability to be a a math person?

Chris Roberts

I do. I believe number one, you meet people where they are, and ideally it's young, and you just build on it. And you have to be patient because everyone's gonna advance at their own rate, right? it starts, of course, with number recognition. Well, it starts with counting things, you know. number recognition, because number recognition is abstract, whereas counting things is is concrete, and that's why we we

like to learn is something concrete, then something that represents, I'll count the dots instead of the things you can hold. And now this number represents the number of dots. That's sort of a, you know, concrete representational abstract thing that I even find myself in my software development day job thinking about, believe it or not, because

A new system will come up and it's just letters and numbers. You're like, wait a minute, draw me a picture. Okay, that's actually going more concrete. That's the way we learn. You know, if you give me a picture, I can sort of arrange these things in my mind so the abstract's not so abstract. I had some reference. anyway, probably tangent there. Pun, not intended. Sorry about that.

Jeff Albaum

No pun intended. Yeah.

No, that's awesome. I I that's really interesting. And I'm I'm trying to think back to my my own education and thinking like, if I was math fluent or if I was more math fluent, would I have enjoyed would I have enjoyed it more? and the answer is probably yes. Cause I I distinctly remember thinking, you know, I teachers would say similar to what you're saying, like, you know, don't worry about how to they didn't use the word compute, but they would say, Don't, you know, don't worry about d you know, solving the equation or whatever, worry about how you think about it. And I just remember thinking as a student, well, like,

Well, man, my grade doesn't depend on how I think about it. My grade depends on what I write down. And that's based on computation. So don't tell me, don't worry about it. And I always remember being so frustrated with with that component of it.

Chris Roberts

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, to properly complete the thought on the previous question, when you get to you know counting and then you get to you know doing the other the other lessons that you've got and you get to multiplication, some people may get breeze past that, like you don't need to know those. Well, the tools that I've built.

I'm hoping that folks practice it every day until they master it, however long that takes. And if you just need to work on your threes, your random three times, you can, or whichever table. You know, you're able to do it at your own pace, which is important. whenever you get to algebra, you could hit a wall. I'm asking the students, let's factor 4x minus 28, you know.

Change that into a product. That's what factoring is, putting into factors versus terms. And if you don't know that four times seven is 28, you're slowed down. And you have to come up with a strategy. You start hitting the wall that I saw. You say, what are factors of 21 that add to 10? Because you're trying to factor this. If you don't know that, really we need to stop and now do a prime factorization tree every time we get to every number, every problem, you know, instead of saying, well,

The only thing you get other than one and twenty-one is three times seven. And there's your answer. Let's carry on to the other to this good part that we're supposed to be, you know, getting to new. that's the wall that I saw with 120 kids that year. And I'm trying to ensure that kids don't hit that same wall. There could be other walls, but at least not hit that one when they get there. that's

Important to again meet them where they are, help that foundation, and don't skip ahead. Okay, you've it's in fact on classical-education.org, the classical education foundation's website. I built a math fluency interactive board. You know, we always say math builds on itself. I show that on a web page, and at the bottom.

Is you know like number recognition, right? Because if you can't recognize your numbers, it's gonna wipe out the the wall above it. And that's the way it's built. You can click on multiplication and you can see what math is at risk if you don't have that and knocks almost you know everything out. the concept of division, if you click on that, it shows that if you don't have that, it knocks a lot of math out. Long division, if you click on it, doesn't knock as much out because long division is sort of a specific kind of little algorithm.

know you can probably do geometry without doing long division and so it has an explanation and everything but it does build on itself and I and I tried to demonstrate that interactively so folks can see that. But yes, I believe anyone can be a math person, but you've got to be patient with them and they have to be patient with themselves and find fun ways of developing that. They need to be feel safe with it that it's okay to mess up. And that's I speak to that in the book. There's this Maslow's hierarchy of needs that every

person that's in education studies, you know, a child has to be s feel safe before they can learn, whether it's in their classroom, the environment or with a teacher. I talk about it in terms of mathematics, that it you need to have good relationship with math to build on that as well. And so, yeah, you need to feel safe that I can mess up I can play a game of Yahtzee and lose and it's okay. I can play a game and, you know, 'cause these are number like games and it's okay to lose. I feel safe in this. Okay. Just keep trying and keep, you know, developing. And that's just

good relationship. if you can see that you're successful, call that self-efficacy, that you see yourself successful, that helps build your confidence and helps build your relationship. If you know that I can solve any problem that comes along, that's in the very top of that. And that's what was built with me. I I lay that out in the book and how I hope that that's what we build with students. But timetables on prescribed

schedules and curriculums throw that off, right? That doesn't allow a student, okay, if you don't get this in this week, we're gonna move on. Okay, well, that's a problem. I mean, because everyone is unique. You know, you hope that they they catch on. but you know I I was that kid that did my homework and was able to keep building on that stuff. So

Jeff Albaum

Yeah.

I I think I read an article from from you. It might have been on on your website about how we do how we group kids, how we group students by grades and how it's kind of this arbitrary thing, right? So do you want to speak a little bit more about that?

Chris Roberts

Right.

Sure can. I appreciate you looking at that, but I think the that real was third grade is not a level that represents their age more than anything because that's the way school grades are. If you are this age by September 1st or whatever it is where you are, that's what grade you're in. But I had the advantage when I was in second, third, fourth grade in those years, I was in California.

I was in El Monte, California, and

Ever since then, there's only one thing that's made sense to me, and I don't see it in schools, and I wish that it were in schools. But if an elementary school has reading in the same time every day and math at the same time every day, other things can drift, then when it's math time, you go to the classroom that's teaching your level. And if you score or you know, prove you're ready for the next level, you just move. And so

Think about a homogeneous classroom of skills, the advantage to the student, because they're getting information from the the teacher that's directly on target with them. The teacher only has to prep for them and monitor them. And if someone again is, you know, scores higher, needs to move on, they just move on. And that that was normal for us. I think I was in second grade, I went to fifth grade math and fifth grade reading. And

That was normal for people to go and

Now kids are in there and a teacher has to differentiate and teach many different levels and have these activities. And so her attention is divided, his or her attention is divided, and the students not getting fed a hundred percent of what they need. And so what are we doing? So that's where that idea came from was from my actual own experience. And I think I benefited from that program. And I really hope that people take a long look at that. I know there are

There are factors and pressures, maybe that we're experiencing in 2026 that we didn't in 1976. Of why is my student here or there and that? But it was normal and it worked. And if your students get fed more of what they need.

That what we're here for? You know, that's what what else why aren't we prioritizing that? And so yeah, it was I have many passionate ideas about education because I feel however I navigated the system and even though I moved around a lot in those elementary years, math was always a constant through there. It didn't matter whether I was in Texas or California or wherever in many different classrooms, you know, four times seven was still twenty-eight, and that sort of anchored me.

Jeff Albaum

Right. Right.

Chris Roberts

Through that. And I hope that math can be an anchor for other kids and and help them have a you know a good relationship with math, kind of back to that. But yeah, that's what I was speaking to with that. And I appreciate you bringing that up because I hope that especially elementary principals, administrators, and I know there's bus schedules and stuff, there's all kinds of parameters, but it made a whole lot of common sense to me back then, and it still makes a lot of common sense to me now.

Jeff Albaum

Totally. Yeah. I I think that the first time I heard the like 'cause I had never thought about or deeply thought about how grades were separated. I was like, it makes sense, like by age for sure. And then I think it was a Khan Academy like TED talk. Sal Sal Khan gave a TED talk about how it's a really poor indicator for grouping students on how to learn each subject because of X, Y, and Z. People develop at different paces and and and you know, people have different you know, some people are

have an inherent they're good at reading earlier, they're less good at reading earlier, et cetera. And yeah, why wouldn't you group people based on ability instead of age, which feels super arbitrary? so it it makes total common sense.

Chris Roberts

Yeah. You know, I can see, you know, homeroom or some other subject matters, you know, art it doesn't matter as to me as far as different skill levels. I think you could teach, you know, an age group, but th those others, the especially the reading and the math, I I just think overall I hope people look closer at that and

To me do the do the right thing on that.

Jeff Albaum

Do you know if that's still a program at El Monte in California?

Chris Roberts

I'm not sure it's been

Four fifty years. I'm trying to do the math. You know, this was late 70s. Yeah, it's been fifty years since I was seven over there. So I don't know. I've tried to reach out to them on social a couple of times. I'm hopeful hopefully someone will tag them somewhere and say, Hey, he keeps talking about Cortada Elementary in in Almonte. I lived, you know, just a block or so from there. lot of great memories there.

They not only had that program, that's where I learned my times tables. They had posters on the board and you put stickers on there. That has bled into what I've developed with these tools because there are things, there's printables that as you progress in master table, you put something on, you know, piece of paper as well that helps you see that helps develop that relationship, believe it or not. Look,

I have achieved this. I can do this. This is something I can be successful at. Those are all positive things. again, renowned educational psychologists, behaviors, these things are important. They're they're built into this. And it's not just my experience, but there are some very sound things that are built into it as well. So yeah, a lot came from my own experiences, and for whatever reason.

when I was in second grade, I would finish my math. I would try to help the teacher help all the other kids and I was paying attention to what she would might say that helped the light bulb go off. And I've been trying to record that ever since. And I'm, you know, since I was seven. And that's just a odd quirk of personality for me. But that's also sort of led me to where I am here and have the passion for what I'm doing with this. I'm still that little kid trying to help other kids.

Jeff Albaum

Yeah, that's awesome. If you could if you could snap your fingers and we're five years into the future, so twenty thirty one, August twenty thirty one, and all of all of your wildest goals had been accomplished, what does that look like?

Chris Roberts

Great question. I would hope that schools, home schools, public schools, private schools, and by the way, there's all of the above that are are playing this this what times what and working on their math fluency, that it's not multiplication fluency, in addition, fluency, these things aren't just a passing lesson, but like music education.

You practice your fingers and scales every day before you play. You know, get the brain going, get these things, reinforce those. work on your blind spots. But there's a culture of math fluency at these schools, and that's normal. I experienced that. again, I've referenced the book a couple of times, but I talk about that when I moved to Quitman, Texas, little town in East Texas, Sue Barber.

Came down to sixth grade from the junior high and started teaching number sense with us and introducing us to that, some mental math stuff. When we went to the other campus at junior high, she practiced that every day before school with folks. Whenever you went to high school math, Doug Barber in the high school practiced that. They had a culture of math fluency. I had to ride the bus and

I could get there sometimes, but I was also divided between some of the music stuff. But those that were able to do that went on to become state champions in number sense and stuff. And that was a normal culture. And I think that it's been lost, but it's not difficult either. It's something you can implement. If schools everywhere had a culture of math fluency and helped develop

Hel help those kids develop a good relationship with math.

I would feel we're on the right track. I would feel that those thoughts that I had and the planning period between those remedial algebra classes of it needs to be more popular than spelling bee, and how to how do you do that? You know, make it cool, fun, challenging, engaging, and have the schools embrace it with these multiplication bees. I would hope that multiplication B's it's easier than a spelling bee, by the way, the way I've set it up, and it's very cool.

The leaderboard automatically updates so that the audience can watch it, QR code so a parent from a distance can see how it's going. The player stations automated and the voice recognition scores it. It is so easy. But if all that's going on and we've got this culture of math, you know, positive math in schools, I will feel mission accomplished.

Jeff Albaum

Man, that's so cool. That's so cool. I I I'm excited to get there and I'm excited to keep watching your your story and journey unfold because I think we we really need it. if people want to learn more about you, where's the best place for them to get touch? And you've I mentioned the book, could just say the book title again and where you're at on socials. How can people reach out to you?

Chris Roberts

Okay.

Appreciate that.

Well, I appreciate that. I created a little vanity URL for the book, Math in the Age of AI dot com, will get you to the Amazon page. appreciate you asking. that is one of the revenue streams. If you have not charging for the software for students and teachers, because I don't think educational tools should be gated by affordability. if you're interested, I think the book's sixteen ninety-five. That is one way to help

Me, if you believe in this cause. there are other things that I'm trying to do. I I could take a multiplication B locally to a party. Believe it or not, there are there are plenty of math kids out there that would enjoy having a multiplication B at a party. I've got that. The good news about that, if they do that locally, is that I'm doing it as a community outreach, but if you

Pay the 501c3, it's tax deductible. So I guess your birthday party could be tax deductible. That's part of that. what times what is live and thriving. Like I said, this week, it was great to see a record number of games played. it it's odd to see students in all over Colombia playing and that.

That was interesting to watch that and it's neat to sort of watch what's going on on there. Classic Math Games is sort of a portal to all of those, you know, what plus what is is coming. But multiplication B is out there, B E E, of course. And I've got I get interest every day from teachers all over that are interested in having that for their school or their classroom. And they can do it for free right now. And I'm very proud of all that because I think it is cool.

Imagine if you're a s a student and someone has put this much effort into it and like I said, there's a lot for the teachers that you you can't even see that it is kind of cool and it's fun and you can challenge folks head to head and you can have tournaments. and leaderboards, you can see where you are on the leaderboard today or all time. I

I like Strava as my fitness app for cycling. You know, it kind of, and so you can look over in my progress and you can see the chart of your game. And by the way, a graph technically. That's also a math topic, but it's built on the students' own data points. That is a very positive thing, and it's a math topic. It is part of, you know, the essential skills. And after they play some games, they can see their actual.

Data and that's a great conversation. Look, over time, here's your score. It's gone up, it's gone down, you're consistent. You know, those are good math conversations, and it happens to be the students' own data. and so that's you know, what times what, multiplication B, classic math games. most of the social is at classic math games. And I appreciate you asking how folks can follow up. Sounds

Jeff Albaum

Absolutely. Well, Chris, thank you so much for for being here, man. I appreciate you and all the work that you're doing and I'm excited to keep following you.

Chris Roberts

Well, same and I appreciate you very much. Thanks, Chris.

Jeff Albaum

Thanks, Chris. All right. I'll see everybody next time. Mm bye everybody.