Why More Views Isn't the Win w/ Josh Stabinsky

But yeah, my, my sort of world has revolved around generally looking at numbers and trying to help people make better decisions and, and helping people like optimize products. I started off doing more like marketing oriented analytics and data science and then gravitated more toward like product and growth related stuff as well. But but I think I don't really, you know, we don't have to get into AI too deeply, but like it's completely upended, like the work itself. And so I don't know the entire, I feel like the entire field as, as with many other fields, like is just completely being flattened and like I can do way more sophisticated work than I was doing 6 to 12 to 24 months ago.

And so I don't know, it's just, it's constantly evolving. It looks very different. But generally that's sort of like where I'm oriented and like the kind of stuff I I I work on. And so when you say like growth oriented, so like let's say, let's take, you know, you worked for a couple of product companies, right? So you your job is like, OK, company is making this product a we want to grow it and sell it and etcetera. So you're looking at like, OK, what ads are working? What are ads are not working? Like when you say growth, what, what does that mean?

Yeah, like a lot of what I was focusing on at that point was around sort of trying to attract more users like from within a company that maybe was already using the product to like grow within a given company and sort of like grow the user base within like installed, you know, customer, the installed customer base already. I was also working a lot on like pricing and like, yeah, like sort of pricing and packaging optimization. So trying to see like where you can like actually grow revenue through, I don't know, all sorts of experimentation, but it was really around like just trying to drive user growth through changes that were being made in, in, in the product itself.

Got it, Got it. Got it. OK. And then does that take us to the Spotify days? So that's what you started doing at Spotify and currently are doing? So yeah, I think pretty nicely. I, I, it's funny, I was hired originally at Spotify to support a product called Spotify Live, which I thought was an incredible product. It was just a live social audio app. So if you remember a clubhouse that was a huge app during the pandemic, there's still, there's still live social audio on like on X, like if you use X spaces, for example. But I was hired to work on that product There just like wasn't anybody formally supporting it from like a data again, analytics and data science standpoint.

And I spent the first few months here developing our what are called like data pipelines, like making it even possible for the data to be analyzed. Like we have all this raw data and they needed to be, needed to be taken and trans like taken, moved, transformed and sort of set up in a way where you could actually answer questions about what was going on. And so that took a few months. It was a pretty large project. And then like, I don't know, within a week or two after doing that, they they shut the product down South. That was, that was an interesting way to start the tenure.

And then and then from there, yeah, I I was already working within what was like sort of without getting, I don't know, without getting too deep into the weeds. It was like sort of like the growth oriented part of like the, the podcast of vertical that I was part of. So at the time it was like talk products, so basically non music related products that the company I was building so moved more toward what's called Spotify for podcasters. At the time it was called Spotify for broadcasters. Now it's called Spotify for creators. And yeah, working again on just like user growth related initiatives under that umbrella.

And I still support that, that part of the business. I've I've bounced around a lot internally, like while supporting creators, while supporting podcasters, But that's that's been the whole journey for the last almost four years now. OK, OK. And, and when did you start to get the inkling or the it's that you're like, I kind of want to make my own. Podcast with this yeah, I mean, I've I had wanted to for a really long time. I never really felt like I had an idea worth pursuing. And we are in we are encouraged to start a show, work on a show like pretty heavily within the team because it gives you so much empathy for the people using your product.

Like I'm so much more opinionated about our product now than I was before I started doing this in ways that I genuinely don't think I could be if I I didn't actually start one and like really get my hands dirty. But I had wanted to start one for a long time. I've been a really avid podcast listener for years and just didn't really feel like I had a novel enough idea or had enough credibility in a space to start something that would be worth pursuing. And and I think that might be the wrong mindset in hindsight. You can you know, you can just start a show because you want to do it and it doesn't really matter who listens to it.

My you know my incentives are like my goals were not really aligned with that mentality for better or worse. Like I I kind of felt like if I'm going to do this and I'm going to pour the amount of effort that I know I'm going to ultimately pour into something. Like this, I really wanted to have the potential to, to, to grow in, in a, in A at least a somewhat meaningful way. So I'd wanted to, to work on a show for a while. And a friend of mine who I work with, he's like no longer on my team, but he still works for the company. He he runs a really good sub stack.

It's called residual thoughts for anybody interested. His name's Joe. He approached me and said, hey, you know, this is a very long, very, very long story condensed. But he was like, hey, I'm like, really interested in starting a show. Here's sort of what I think it could look like. Are you interested in doing this with me? And I said, yeah, absolutely. I'd love to work on something. It was sort of the catalyst I needed to jump in. And so we talked about what it could look like. And we landed on a founder interview style show. And we didn't have like a tremendous or a really concrete point of differentiation, which is something, you know, we can, we can get into.

Or like, maybe that wasn't like, maybe that's not the best. I don't know. I think I don't, I don't know if that how do I want to frame this? I think like if you really care about growing a show, like differentiating, it is probably something you want to pay attention to. But we had a week off of work collectively as a company and it just felt like a really good time to try to book a bunch of guests in a really condensed period of time and just dive right in. So try to get everything off the ground as quickly as possible. And I think that was ultimately what I needed to, to do this.

I think it's really easy to get hung up on all these little details. And yeah, I just think I ultimately needed to like dive in head 1st and try to get something up really, really quickly and not over not give myself, not allow myself the time to overthink things. And that's, that's how it started. So I, I cold emailed like, I don't know, 100 or 200 founders building businesses that I personally was really interested in. And you know, it's, it's amazing anybody responded. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's pretty incredible. Like I had 0 credibility other than like linking out to my LinkedIn profile and saying, you know, I work at Spotify and I was really like, I was really careful to not make it seem like this was in any way affiliated with Spotify.

But I do think that gave me a little bit of credibility. But you know, there was no saying whether or not I would be good at this at all. And yeah, I don't know, it's amazing. I think it's a real testament to the to the people who who said yes early on with 0 proof. So, you know, a huge shout out to like the original guests who just said yes because they were interested and wanted to do something like that. But that then made it so much easier with everybody that said yes. I could then speak to that in a subsequent e-mail when I was trying to outbound people.

And it really compounds like when you're trying to find guests, it's really difficult in the beginning when you don't have an established show, if you're not a celebrity and you don't have like, or you don't have a very established network and whatever it is you're trying to do. But like, it really compounds exponentially. And it's become like the easiest aspect of building the show, which is, which is wild because I, you know, it went from nothing to like a ton of inbound demand to, to, to come on. So yeah, anyway, that's sort of a long winded answer to your to your question, But I, I've had, you know, I had the itch for a really long time and it was just sort of the spark at the time that I needed to, to really jump in and, and, and build something.

So now I like in if we're Fast forward to today, are you and Joe still working on it together? No, So, yeah, great question. So Joe worked on it for about 5 episodes and he was like, look, this is this is clearly extremely energizing for you. And like this is really draining for me and it's not what I want to be focusing my effort and my energy on, But you should run with it. Like, you know, you clearly love doing this. Like you should build this, you should do it. And so, I mean, I was bummed because, like, I love working on it with him, but I just wanted to work on it.

Like, I just wanted to keep pursuing it. And so, yeah, he was only on it for for a few episodes, but he, you know, it was a very integral part in getting it all kicked off. Totally, totally. So so now like you said, it's switched from get like getting, getting guests is one of the harder things to do. But then there was this inflection point where now you have more inbound than you need, which is amazing. So like, what does that look like? Like how did you, what were you saying to people in your in your outbound once and what did that inflection point look like?

Yeah, I don't know. Let me try to think about when exactly I reached that point. Well, it's interesting. I think it was sort of came in phases. I think the first time I got somebody reaching out to be on the show was a huge milestone, right? Like that happened probably 10 to 15 episodes in and I don't remember who it was or if it was a, if it was a company or founder or like product that I was particularly interested in, but just that signal was really encouraging. And there's these little moments like that as you build a show where they're, they're really important because there's just tons of ups and downs intraday, intraday, like week to week, month to month.

It's it's a lot. It's, you know, it's very, if you care about it, it can be really volatile, like emotionally it's, you know, if you're really invested in it, but that, you know, that was sort of not an inflection point, but I think a really important milestone. And I think, you know, probably I, I, I, I'm putting out my 60th episode this week at the time we're recording. So like, I think probably around I could, I could go look at my catalog and tell you the first point at which like which number episode was the first where it was APR firm reaching out to me to place one of their guests on the show.

Like if you're interested, I could just like quickly go look and see who it was. I'm guessing it was probably in, you know, maybe like the 15 to 30 range. That's my guess. So again, that was another big milestone was having a legitimate PR firms reach out to me and try to place guests. And that's been a huge, a huge help because if you establish a good relationship, if you show them, you know, you show the first one that reaches out to you like this, I'm going to do a good job with this. And they have tons of other people for you to speak with.

And then it just, it creates a ton of credibility. But yeah, I think it's gotten to the point now where the the finding guests is. I mean, it's really fun now. It's become a fun now it's become, I don't know, a more fun aspect of building the show because I can do I can be really targeted and who I just try to cold outbound and I can take bigger swings and try to go after bigger, bigger names, if you will. But what's been really cool as well is in finding new guests to bring on who are building things that I wasn't aware of organically through recommendations and connections from prior guests.

Like that's probably been my favorite way to to seed new people to have on the show. And it's been really fun to sort of build this web of like this was, this was a recommendation from this person who was a recommendation from this person. And, and seeing those connections has been really gratifying. And I don't know, just like a fun personal aspect of the show. But, but yeah, I don't know. I don't know if there's like actually a specific inflection point, but I don't know. Again, I'm like roughly 12A little, a little less than 12 months in now.

I think the last three or four months have been pretty consistent in that when I'm outbounding, it's really targeted and there's just enough inbound flow to not have to worry about it as much. Yeah, that makes sense. Do you release weekly? I release weekly and I, I haven't missed a week yet, which is I think great. It's awesome. You know, there've been some, there've been some really late nights in order to make that work. There was a period where I was trying to release 2 episodes a week. There was a period where I overbooked myself and I was recording three sessions a week and releasing 2 episodes a week and that lasted for like one to two months maybe.

And I couldn't get out of it because I was, I was, I had already booked out too far. And I was trying to sort of test the limits of how much content I could put out. And because I had this idea in my head where like, you know, if you put out two episodes a week versus one, you're not going to double your consumption, but you're going to grow the audience and you're going to see more consumption. It's not like a linear, right? It's like a linear relationship there, but I really wanted to try to grow the back. I mean, I don't regret this at all. It was extremely stressful and I like really burn myself out for a little bit.

But like I, I really wanted to grow the back catalog and see what I could do, but it was way too much. And at that point I already booked myself out for like a couple months worth of, of this sort of cadence. And so I just had to like work through it for a while. Took, I don't know, maybe four or five weeks off of interviewing at a certain point to just sort of work through the back catalog of, of episodes I'd recorded to not continue to like compound the issue. So yeah, I found like IA really healthy cadence at this point is like trying to do one or two recordings a week, like one or two recording sessions a week and then still trying to publish weekly.

And I think that's, it's, it's one of the first things people will recommend to you if you're trying to start a podcast is releasing content on a regular cadence is extremely important. If you again, if you, if you care about trying to optimize for growth, having a regular cadence is extremely important. It, you know, again, it builds your back catalog for people to find, you know, the more, the more content you have out there, the more opportunity there is for somebody to find the content. Somebody really likes it. They can RIP through your entire back catalog and it just, again, it compounds your growth, but it gives people something to look forward to and something to expect.

And it's just an important aspect and and trying to again, trying to optimize for growth if that's what you want to do. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense when when you think because like I, I love hearing you talk about this because it's so clear, like you're fired up. Like you talk about energize versus draining. Like you're definitely energized by which is like the point, right? What do you think it is about talking to someone on a computer that's energizing? Because I agree with you, I think it's super energizing. But why? I love talking to people.

I don't really get anything out. Like I would rather be in person with you in this in studio. Totally. Right now, I would much rather have like an actual conversation with you and then just hang out and talk like off off air and spend some time with you. But I, I like talking to people. I really, and I, and I think that if you don't, this is not like a hobby or line of work that you should pursue. You should genuinely want to. You should feel really inspired and and fired up about whatever that sort of subject matter is you're trying to talk about.

But I love talking to people. I actually don't think I'd be a very good salesperson at all, but I do love talking to people. I think I'm pretty personable. And I think part of what fires me up is I don't know, there's several aspects to it. I love learning like I, again, I'm just like innately a very curious person and I love learning about this subject matter. And I think this is a really unique way to do that. And I think it's really, I don't know, one of the really valuable aspects of this is hearing from founders, reaching out to me, saying your show is really valuable.

Like the content that you're putting out there. I'm getting value out of this. I keep going, not even asking to be on the show, but you're saying like, this is great, like keep doing this. This is a really cool show. Like I really like it that that means a lot. So I don't know. That fires me up. Like I said, learning the, the act of growing something, I think that's, you know, it's, it's a really interesting thing. There's so many parallels between growing a show and growing a business. The stakes are significantly lower because I'm still employed.

You know, I love my job. I'm still employed, but there's a lot of parallels around growing something and building something. And like I have huge ambitions and aspirations for where the show can go, where I'd like to see it go. And I think I had never really had, you know, I had major career ambitions throughout, you know, the first several years of my career and like, you know, still, still do, but I had never had any sort of ambition in terms of like growing something or building something like this. And so that's been extremely rewarding too.

And so there's tons of aspects about doing this that are very draining. I, I don't enjoy the active editing the content, but but the output and what comes out of it is energizing enough to offset the aspects of it that I don't like. My favorite part about it is talking to people and meeting new people and learning from people. And if I'm learning from somebody and getting something, you know, legitimately valuable out of the conversation, that's a win. Like I'm, I'm gonna that that's successful. People ask me like, Oh, what, you know, what is a successful conversation for you Look like some, some guests asked me that, like, what are you trying?

You know, what are you trying to gain out of the conversation? And, and if I, if I learn something like that's, that's a win. And then everything else sort of falls into place from there. But I don't know, I just, I think, I think you just either enjoy it or you don't. I think it's just the kind of thing that it either fires you up or it doesn't. And again, it's not, it's not the, it the remote aspect of it is, if anything, not it's not doing, it's not doing it any favors. But I think just, you know, I'm, I'm fired up being on the show like it's, you know, I like talking to people.

I like learning. And and if you like both of those things, it's a pretty good medium. For that totally, totally who's when you think about like you close your eyes, you're like, all right, in in three years, in two years, I will have interviewed blank. My dream, it's funny, I have, I have like a, a couple of of dream guests. One of them is Jimmy Butler. So I'm a huge basketball fan. Jimmy Butler plays for the Warriors. I'm a huge Warriors fan. But Jimmy Butler started a coffee company called Big Face and it's done really well and it's a really interesting brand.

They make really good coffee. He's a huge coffee person in general. I also love coffee. And so I think it would be like an incredibly fulfilling experience for me just to talk to him. But I think the conversation would be fascinating because part of it is this desire to talk to you like a professional athlete about like the the hidden economics and mechanics that you don't really get to see around, like a professional sports career. Like all the all the finances and numbers and everything that goes on behind the scenes that you don't see as well as why, like why are you growing this thing?

You don't have to do this. Like clearly you're motivated to do this and sort of digging into that and why and why coffee and like that. That would be fascinating to me. So he's one that I would, I would love to talk to you at some point down the line. You know, there's other, there's other people, but I'm constantly, you know, it's been, it's been, I don't want to overstate this, but I'm getting more inbound interest from, I would say like Bart, like significantly larger brands and, and people in the industry. And so that's been really encouraging too.

So I don't know, there's I, yeah, I guess I'll leave it at that. That he's, he's probably the number one on my list, but there's definitely like plenty of people that I'd be, there's so many people out there that I'd be thrilled to talk with. I, you know, the, the, the list is, it's sort of limitless. But, but Jeff, I'm curious, like what? It's hard for me also to not just immediately jump in and then ask you a question. Like I really have to hold myself back. And I, you know, I've made it 25 minutes now without doing that. But what fires you up about this?

Is it a similar sort of thing? Like what? What do you? What do you like about doing what you do? Oh 1000% man. It's like it like I always say, like my favorite thing in the world is is going to coffee with someone. Like if, if I could spend my entire day going to coffee with people, like I'd be in heaven. Like, that's amazing. I love it. And like, I don't doesn't matter. Well, they like it has to not all people energize me, right? Like I I don't think I'm a pure. What's it called when you get you get energy from being extrovert? Yeah. Oh. Sam. Yeah, Sam, I'm not.

I don't actually think of myself as being extroverted in the traditional sense at all. Yeah. So what does that look like? Well, like, I don't like situations I get, I get really pretty anxious actually. Like in situations where I'm going to a situation where there's a bunch of people I don't know, for example, like some people that really enter that that energizes them and not, that is not something I I like. Once I'm in it and I've met a couple people and I feel more comfortable, like I'm, I'm totally fine. But this is way like talk, meeting one or two or three people and then having a conversation in a smaller group, I enjoy that way more.

Like that's just way less intimidating to me. And that's the kind of, I don't know, that's just the kind of situation I like. So yeah, I love, I love talking to people, but there's plenty of social settings that I don't immediately gravitate toward. And so that's a that's a muscle to to build as well. And it's a muscle to build as well, too. And like thinking about growing a show, there's so much, there's so much work that has to happen off camera. Like, you know, I, I feel like it's interesting. I, I knew I was at an advantage in some sense and that I, I know a lot about what it takes to grow a show.

And I, and I, I knew that going into trying to build this, but I, I couldn't have even possibly appreciated how much work goes into it off camera. Like the fun part of just talking to somebody and recording, you know, that's an hour roughly, if that's how long you and you know, you, you record for. But there's so much work, you know, from like editing to, to all of the, all of the social promotion to like actually, if you, if you get, you know, to that point or if it's of interest to you, like going out and promoting it and doing things in person, like in person events, that's draining.

Like that's really hard work. Also, there's just so much work that, you know, there's so much supportive work around the conversation itself. Like, I cannot overstate that enough. It's, it's really crazy how much actually goes into it when you again, want to have a consistent cadence and have genuine ambition to like, yeah, genuine ambitions to, to grow in a, in a, you know, in a pretty meaningful way. And and I and I kind of, you know, it's a really interesting, I don't know, it's really interesting to work through that mentally too, because if my show just sort of like tapered off in terms of like the show is growing, but if it just stopped at this point and you said this is all you're going to get, would you be happy?

Like would that be a good outcome? The answer is yes. Be a little bit of a tough pill to swallow, but there's so many. I don't know. It's just like it's an interesting thing to work through and to think through is like somebody trying to create something like how much should you focus on the numbers and the metrics versus how much should you be doing it because you just sincerely want to be building or crafting whatever it is you want to build. You know what I mean? Spoken like a true data scientist, man. It's to my detriment, I think at times, like it's hard to not, I think it's hard to not look at the numbers like every single day.

But it has been really cool. It's also been really cool to take the numbers to use the product really deeply and to care in this way and then go back to like product teams I work with and say like, Hey, why did we build this thing this way? This would be so much more powerful if we could like split this graph by this specific dimension. And then getting into a conversation like that and like really having an opinion about, you know, what we build and, and why and like getting to test new stuff out on my show. It's been, it's been really cool. It's been like a really fun secondary benefit of this of of building this that I just like, did not see coming when I when I first kicked it off.

2 two things kind of stand out at me. Like 1 it's so cool that Spotify encourages people to work on stuff like that, like that. That's like really cool. I didn't, I didn't know that. The second thing too, I'm curious about is like when you say like, I kind of had a little like, obviously you know, a little bit more about what goes into building a show that gets traction and that can grow. So like if, if I'm if, if I'm new to this and I'm thinking like, oh, like, I wonder what those things are. Like what are a couple a couple things that you were surprised to learn or or that you think people would be surprised to know?

Yeah, I I think 1 is how much you need to focus on impressions, how many eyes you need to get on your show in order to, if you think about it like a funnel, if 1000 people are exposed to your show, very few of them will actually wind up listening, right? Very, very few. Again, if you're an average person, like if you're a celebrity and you or you have a massive network because you're some, you know, like you're a subject matter expert on a on a specific topic, it's a different story. But like just for the for the, let's just say the average person, if you just throw, if you just put a show out into the world, it's pretty easy to get it seen like just, you know, like from a literal impression standpoint online.

But to actually get people compelled enough to click play is like one part of the funnel and there's a huge drop off there. And that I've started thinking about a lot more. And so it's not only about just overall volume, but like, is this being, is this showing up in the right place, like 500 impressions in the right place from the right source from like, you know, among the right people who like would actually be more likely to care about conversations with founders and entrepreneur. I mean, excuse me, with founders and operators and investors is way more valuable than 20,000 impressions from TikTok among 20,000 random people.

Like it's just not being just being a little bit more thoughtful about like where you're trying to source those impressions from to begin with. But then again, still, even among like a captivated or engaged audience or interested audience, like there's a there's a good drop off there. So like that's part of it. And I think like thinking through, yeah, I don't know just how much how much of A role social media plays in all this is is I don't know. It's disheartening in some ways. Like I don't like social media. I don't like being on social media.

I don't like promoting the show in that way. That's not like, you know, that was sort of that was sort of an introverted moment from you were like the first time I posted on the show on LinkedIn. I was like, I'm going to be sick. I don't want to do this. Like I maybe I maybe I just shouldn't do this. Like I don't want to do this anymore now, you know, posting all the time everywhere and I don't care anymore. Like, but that was a real hurdle for me to get over. So that was, I think that's one aspect. And then I think there's this other part of the funnel, which is OK, once somebody clicks play, like, are they going to stay?

Like how much, how captivating is your content? And so then that's another piece of it too, which is, I mean, at the end of the day, like, is the content good? And that's subjective, but that's, that's a totally different muscle, right? So there's like a marketing angle to it and then there's like a product angle to it. And again, when I talk about or think about like parallels to building a business, like there's pretty clear language there. And you can think about it too. Like it's, there's like a value exchange. It's not, I'm not asking people to pay to listen to the show, but like I'm asking for your time.

And that's like a really difficult thing to do to convince somebody to to spend their time listening to something that you put out there. It's it's, it's actually like a huge ask when they could listen to anything else. Like it's an extremely crowded space. You know, the market is just over saturated with content for better or worse. And so, yeah, like, I don't know, I just framing and thinking about it in, in these ways and, and like the levers to pull is just, again, something that I've heard about that when you're actually in it and you can test out what works and what doesn't and you can try new things and you can experiment.

That's part of what's fun too, is the show is still small enough that like I can take big swings and experiment with different mediums and different types of, you know, promotion, which has been fun. But yeah, I don't know, it's sort of like, I think a marketing and product calculation. And I don't think I, again, I have like a tremendous amount of respect and like admiration for people who just like put out content, you know, put out like substantive content, regardless of how big the show is. It's just like a ton of work. But I don't think I could have understood the, the mechanics at that sort of depth unless I was actually trying to build this thing.

And so I can give you an example too of like there was a period where I was paying for a tool that helped clip my podcast and would schedule them like create, you know, it's like, it's like an AI tool that like you feed it your, your entire for video podcast. You feed it your video, it clips it up. It finds like, it surfaces what it thinks are like the best clips, writes your captions for you, you plug it in, you connected to like all your various social platforms, then it schedules and post them on your behalf. And you know, that was like a reasonable way to get impressions on the show.

And there was real merit for me in having continued to do that for longer than I did. I used it for several months, but it wasn't actually leading to consumption. And that's really what I care about. I don't just want to get more eyes on the on the cover art or the episode art for the sake of getting more eyes on it. Like I actually want people to engage and to listen. And so I am not using that tool anymore. I'm totally open to coming back to it. I think it's a better tool for like more established shows probably. But like it's just doesn't feel like the right kind of content for that particular tool, at least at this point in time.

And so now I'm spending more time focused on writing on sub stack and like actually thinking about the lessons that I'm learning in every single conversation that I'm having and trying to put out again, like more nutritious or substantive content off of the show itself, like as a sort of like, you know, follow on to these conversations. And it's forced me to like actually reflect on. It's really easy to not actually take the time to reflect on what I'm learning about on a day-to-day, a week to week basis. So it's a combination of trying to write about what did I learn from the person I spoke with and what did I like what happened in the last week and trying to grow the show and what did I learn about that and sort of trying to blend those two themes together.

And less people are seeing that content than, you know, the YouTube shorts that were getting generated on my behalf. But I'm confident that that's a better use of my time and energy than just putting out clips for the sake of putting out clips, at least today. And so those are the kinds of things that I think are fun to think about and tinker with an experiment with. Like that's that's a that's a huge part of trying to grow it. So. Yeah, that's, yeah. I don't know. That's where my head's at. Dude you're a beast. Thanks I appreciate it. You could do a master class on this.

I mean, I, I appreciate it. That's I'm flattered. We'll see how big the show gets. Like I think I, I think I have a lot of good thoughts. We'll I think like you have to sort of, you know, prove it when you, when you, when you get to that point. But but I, but I, I, I, I don't know, I'm like, I really care about. I don't want to be doing this for the sake of doing it. I don't want to be doing any sort of like associated activity or like promotional tactic for the sake of doing it. Like I really want to do this in a thoughtful way. You know, I know it would be and here's like another example, like the creates and like internal tension for me.

Like I know it would be beneficial for me to go out and do more influencer style content. Hey, like here's my story day in the life type stuff. People love that. I don't like that. Like that's uncomfortable for me. I don't want to do that. And so there is, there is a trade off there that there's a question around how stubborn do you want to be and how much do you want to give for the, you know, for the for the sake of growing something that you're trying to grow. What What eventually pushed you over to start posting on socials? I knew from the beginning that like it was something you have to do right?

Because if you just put, if you just start a show and you put a show out there into the universe, if you don't tell anybody about it, like you're never going to get any consumption. The, the, the growth flywheels that you see, right? Like once your show starts growing, there's just more and more and more and more compounding opportunities for it to be surfaced within a given product or among people. But if you don't actually share the show from the start, no one's going to see it. So like, I knew I had to do that. I think I just didn't, I know I didn't think about it for the first week of recording interviews with people.

And then when it came time to like actually do, it was like, well, I have to do this and it was nothing like it. I think there's just, I think there's imposter syndrome in in doing anything like this. I don't know, you know, part of this is part of the angle. Like I'm not somebody that's built a company. Like I don't know about a lot of these things. I can talk to a lot of different people about a lot of different things. And I think that's like to my advantage in doing what I'm trying to do. But like there, you know, there's some imposter syndrome and talking to people who are like absolute experts in their field and asking really stupid questions.

But like, you just have to kind of be open to doing that and like not, you know, just getting over that mental hurdle and like putting myself out there online in that way. I think is again, I got used to it really quickly because I was forced to. But that's just not something that that I think there are people that love that, right? There are people that kind of crave that, sort of. That feedback loop and that attention in that way. And that's not what I want. Like, if I could build this and never post on social media ever, I would be thrilled.

Like I would love to be able to do that, but you can't. Like you just can't do that, at least not in today's world. So do you think that that same thought process and though should apply to doing the creator stuff that you're talking about like the the day in the life and the this kind of stuff? And do you think it would you would get comfortable with it as quick as you as socials were? Probably, I think so. I think there's also, you know, I'm, I, my time is like pretty constrained. It's a huge like if I do that, if I spend 3 hours a week on that, like I'm sacrificing something.

And so a lot of the time it's sleep and that's not good. And so there's really only so much time you can spend on, on all of these different things, but that's also fun to expect It is, it is I find it fun to experiment with all these different tactics. And again, like you can just go build a show because you want to and you don't have to care about any of this. Like you can just go do it for the sake of the craft. And I think that's like a really beautiful thing. But I find the, the prospects and the the work required to build a really like a meaningfully large show to be to be energizing like that.

That excites me and it's worth the work. It's worth all the effort to me. So again, I could just not do it. But if if you know for for what I want to do and for what I want to build, you just kind of have to. So anyway, yeah, I think like I should probably start posting more like in that manner. It's, but it's also just like finding, finding ways to do that that don't feel cringy or inauthentic to me, right? Like there's, there's, it's not black and white, that none of this is black and white. It's all it, it can be kind of whatever I want it to be or, you know, you, whoever, whomever wants it to be.

And like, I don't know, there's a lot of advice thrown around in the world. And I think being selective about what you listen to and what you don't is important. So. Yeah. That's very well said. That's very, very well said. Oh, man, yeah, dude, that's awesome. That's super cool. What are, what are you looking for right now? Like what would be helpful if you're like, man, I'm, I'm, I'm struggling with this or I'm, I'm, I'm looking to improve this or, you know, someone's listening to this and like, oh, I'm into this and I'm, I can reach out to Josh or whatever.

Like what is? What are you looking for? I am very open to having someone come help me with editing. Like I, I am good at editing. I'm, I'm also very open to talk about things like I'm bad at, I don't want that to come across as like being conceited. Like there's plenty of stuff in the world that I'm really bad at. I am good at editing. I did a bunch of video production work in high school, actually, like several years worth of like video, like film stuff. And so I know how to edit and like, you can drop me into an editing tool and I'll probably pick it up pretty quickly.

And I'm, I'm, if anything, I'm too meticulous about the, the end output and like the actual like, you know, down to like the second or like millisecond, like cuts that I'm making. Like it, it's a little bit extreme, but that would be a that's a huge amount of time. So like, I'm very open to like giving that work away to somebody else if it makes sense. You know, I think, I think that I'm, I'm, I don't know, I'm like pretty I'm, it's hard to say, like somebody could reach out to me with an idea that I had never even considered. And it might be an amazing opportunity to collaborate on something.

Like I'd love to collaborate with more people building podcasts and do like more cross promotional type stuff. You know, I'd love to like have somebody that was genuinely interested in just help. Like if somebody came along and said, I really want like, I'm so interested in what you're building and I would love to get involved and help you build your show. And I don't ever want to be on camera. Like I just like the behind the scenes production growth product sort of aspect of it. I would be thrilled to talk to that person. I loved working on. I loved having a Co host at the time, but I think that was like a very special dynamic.

And like, I, I think it's in many ways easier to just do this as one person because I know exactly what I'm going to ask next. And I know exactly what, you know, I want to get out of the conversation and I can think 3 questions ahead and steer it in a specific direction. And that's much harder to do. I mean, I think people that do Co hosted shows, if you listen to a show and it's like Co hosted and they, and it seems really seamless to you, like that's a real gift, I think. And that's they are on a wavelength with one another that I think is incredible.

But so I, I don't, I don't really like, I don't want to bring in somebody to help out with that part of the work, but there's tons of again, like work surrounding the work that would be a huge help. But the, you know, there is something really gratifying too about just like being a, a one person band, being a one person show and, and putting it out. And it's just, it's just, it is at a certain point, it's too time consuming. So like, at a certain point you have to feel comfortable, like relinquishing some of the work, which I am, but you know, it's OK for now.

Fair enough, fair enough, fair enough. Yeah, what about you? Same question to you. What are you, what are your like? What are your ambitions overall to cause like when we talked previously about about curiosity class and like what you're trying to do, you know, you had you, you basically made it seem like you're just doing it for the craft and because you love having these conversations and you don't really, at least at the time and correct me if I'm wrong, like you didn't seem that fixated on show growth and numbers and these types of things. Is that is that a fair assessment?

And is that still the case? Yeah, with with a caveat, like I really liked what you said, but like that's, that's directionally true. Like I, I look at the numbers, but I'm not I don't really care. Like I don't really care about the numbers. Like for me, I'm, I'm much more honored and gratified when like, to me, anytime I see that someone's listening to the show, it's like, holy shit, like they just spent an hour of their life. And like that to me is the biggest honor. And I take that like as, as a responsibility, you know, like I don't want to ever put something out where it's like, no, no, like if someone's going to give up everything else they could be listening to, to listen to this, is that worth it?

Right. And so like, it is a balance. We're like, it's kind of an egotistical statement to say, oh, I think what I just said is the most worthy of everyone's attention. So you know that that's not what I'm trying to say. But there is a tension of like whatever I put out, I really, really want to make sure it's valuable. At the same time, the the conversation itself is a self fulfilling and self energizing fly will to me. So like getting to have a conversation with someone is in and above itself, like the reward, you know, like the rest of it, the editing, the putting it out.

Like to me, that's all just like, oh, this is a new skill that I don't know how to do. And like marketing, what the hell does marketing mean? You know, like it's all new and like, I've never edited before. It's like editing that's all new. Like how do you make thumbnails that's new. So it's that's been really fun to learn, you know? Yeah. I mean, I think that's a healthier way of looking at it. I don't think it's right or wrong, but I think that's a healthier, more wholesome way of looking at the space and, and trying to build within it. And I have a ton of admiration for, for that.

I'm, I think you have to like what you're describing enough. Like I think you have to, in order to really stick with this. Cause like most people who start a show drop off very early on, like the vast majority of people that ever try to start a podcast, do not stick it, stick with it. It's a, it's a crazy percentage of people. And so in order to do that, as, I mean, you have to ask for like, well, why is that? And it's like, well, it's a, it's a ton of work. It's hard. It's not a me. There's like basically in almost every single case, there's zero immediate gratification.

And you just have to like, and if that's the case, you just have to like the act of doing it and you have to get enough out of the conversations in order to stick with it. So yeah, I don't know. I have a lot of respect for for your approach and how you think about it. Thank you. And I mean to your point, like I don't think there's a right or wrong way to do it. I think there's a right or wrong way for each person, right? Like I think if I tried to do your way it wouldn't be right and vice versa. Yeah. But I do think there are lessons I can take from your approach generally like they're there's.

Yeah, like again, no right or wrong, but things need to be sustainable and things need to you have to, you have to like if it becomes not not enjoyable at a certain point, then like the second it does, you have to reflect on why. And there have been periods where I've been like, I am not enjoying this. And it's been because I was just there were there were too many conversations going on, there was too much to edit and it felt like a huge burden at a certain point. And I was like, I don't want to quit because I love doing this. But like when things become unenjoyable when you're doing something that you technically don't have to be doing, like probably assess why that is.

Yeah, but I mean, to, to your point from earlier, like you don't want to do something just to do it. And I, I like, I like your framing, right. So like, I like that thought process. Like I, I think I can have sometimes a little bit too much of A lazy fair attitude where it's like, oh, whatever the views are what they are. And like, I think that's why I've started posting on social media more is because, like, I want to give a damn, you know, like you want to like, if you're doing something, you should be caring about what you're doing. And I think there are the kind of these minimum things you you should be doing and taking seriously.

Yeah, if you want. Who again? You. Don't have to who? Who would your dream guest be? I've had a a little like, I've kind of, this is going to sound maybe morbid, depressing. I don't know if I have one. I think the more I've gotten to talk to people, the more I've realized like everyone's a human and some conversations are going to be insanely energizing and it's going to be someone that no one's ever heard of and no one ever will. And some people are going to talk to and maybe people have heard of them. And it's like I, I just, I tend to put people on pedestals.

And so I'm like, Oh my God, like this is that person. Like you talk to them and it's kind of a let down because you're like, well, you're just a person. Like you're a human and you have amazing things about you and you have not amazing things about you and everything in between. And so like I, I used to say, like, you know, the authors that I love and I think it's still a really cool thing, like to get to talk to an author of a book that you really love. So definitely some authors I would love to chat with, but I, I don't know if I have like a, a dream guest, so to say.

Interesting. Yeah, I think that's very true. I, you know, I think I've been able to take something from every single conversation. There are lessons to learn in every single conversation I've had. But I do love the conversations I have where like I had no expectations going in and then somebody blows me away either with their story or like their business acumen or just like their capabilities as a marketer or, or, or a product person or whatever. Like those are really fun and those are really energizing. And I find those to be even easier to make more conversational, which which is very difficult to do.

I think when you're having a recorded conversation and it's an interview style show like that can be really difficult. And so I love, I love that, I love when that happens 'cause it's not, it's not that, I mean, it's not that rare, but it, but it's not like every, you know, it's, it's, I would say somewhat uncommon. So it's fun. There, I don't know if if you'll agree with this, but I think that there's sometimes there's there's a magic and that's the only word that I can kind of prescribe to it where it's like you're just in flow. It's like you have that you're on the same wavelength as if you had that wavelength with your Co host that you were talking about earlier, but like you're just in flow and it's like a it's it.

It just is an amazing, like the conversation is so easy, you know? Yeah, yeah, when I have a conversation with somebody and I don't need to look at my show notes at all, it's awesome. And and when I'm not thinking about what the next question I'm going to ask isn't it just kind of pops up like there's there is a float state to it, I think. And it's incredible. I think that's also part of why I like asking my guests about who else they would recommend to come on the show because and I don't, I don't necessarily ask every. I mean, again, I've loved like every conversation I've had.

I've sincerely appreciated and like there is something to take away from all of them. But just naturally they're going to be people you just click with more. And it's hard, I think, to articulate the specifics around why or what that might have been. But if you say I love to this conversation, who else should I talk to? They're probably going to give you 4 out of five of the people they bring up are probably going to be people that are going to, you're going to have a fairly similar dynamic with, I think. And that's proven to be the case so far.

So like that's been really fun. And that, yeah, that's been one of the more, again, that that has been the most gratifying way I think of, of, of outbound of, of, of, yeah, of, of getting new guests to, to agree to come on the show. Like, that's been really cool. Totally, yeah. It's like cool people know cool, cool people. Yeah, exactly. That's pretty transferable I think regardless of like whatever space it is you're interested in, in starting a show. And I think that's, I think that's true totally. Yeah, dude, I can talk to you for hours, man.

I, I appreciate you so much for coming on. Of course. Where, where can people find out more about you? Where would you point them to? Yeah, well, pretty easy. If you want to find the show's website, you can go to uepod.com. You can find me on Instagram UE dot pod, you can find me on LinkedIn, Josh Stebinski. It's pretty, pretty easy. And you can find me on sub stack again at UE dot pod And I think that's pretty much it. I think I feel like I feel like my bases are covered. Your bases are covered with with all of those. But yeah, reach out if you're interested in what I'm doing.

Like I I again, I love talking to people. I've had really engaging, meaningful conversations with people who want nothing from me at all and just wanted to talk about the show itself and like what I'm doing and why I'm like, are are interested in it. And that's been so gratifying. So yeah, I don't know anyone listening. Always happy to chat. A huge fan of Jeff's show. I'm a big fan. Like Jeff, keep keep going, keep doing what you're doing. Curiosity classes. It's a really cool thing. And, you know, it doesn't matter. Like, yeah, I don't know, like, I think your attitude toward it is like, part of part of what makes it so compelling to me.

So yeah, just keep at it. You're doing, you're doing something really cool. Thank you, man, I appreciate that. And and back at you really, really huge listener and huge fan. And so it's this is honestly, this has been a a really fun conversation and like it's a it's always cool to like get to chat with people that you've heard so much and like listen to so much in your ears, but then get to have a conversation with them. You're like. Likewise, and, and it's fun to to sort of commiserate and, and like, you know, talk, I tried not to, you know, incorporate so much like jargon, but like, it's really fun to talk to people who can like really understand your specific experience.

And, and something that you brought up. I know we're, we're, we're running up on time, but like something that you brought up to me, I don't know, months ago was you felt like, you know, I wish there was like a, more of a community around this or like a way to connect with other, other folks in the space that are just trying to build something sort of at this stage. And I love that idea. And if, if that's of interest to anybody listening, like I'm all ears. I think that's like something that I'm, I, I have to assume that's out there. They're probably networks and communities of people doing this that like I'm just not topped into.

But like, I, I, I think a goal of mine is to talk to more people. I, I, I think so I think I've built my network in terms of like the types of guests that I want to be bringing on the show, Like tremendously, like I'm really proud of myself for that. But I, I was reflecting on this the other day, like, I don't think I've grown my network in terms of other podcasters or people in the space nearly as much as I should have over the last year. So that's a, that's a real goal of mine. So like if anybody wants to just chat about, you know, the medium itself, I'm also like totally happy to talk about that.

Amazing. Yeah, 100%. I think that would be a a huge, a huge need. And I have to imagine in in New York City and Austin, those are two of the probably easiest places to make those that happen. I think so. I would, I would assume that if you asked me the top 2, I'd be like, well, those are probably them. So they got to be, they got to be out there. If we can't do it in those places, we're we're screwed. Yeah, it's never going to happen. But anyway, Jeff, I I really, really appreciate the time. I and I'm so honored that you invited me to come on the show.

Like again, I am sincerely a big fan of what you're doing and, and a big fan of yours personally. And so this is the first time I've been interviewed about the show itself. So like really cool to be to be doing that on this platform. And yeah, man, just appreciate it. Thank you, dude. I appreciate it and I appreciate you. I'm looking forward to hang out in person here sooner rather than later. Yeah, likewise. I'm excited to see this one. See. This one live 100%. Bye everybody.