Why Chasing Money Made Her Worse At It w/ Gabi Rosen

He can handle that or he did definitely handle it and he still could do it today versus me. I'm like, I I want a little more certainty. I want to know that I can not eat peanut butter and Jelly every day for sure, for sure. And so, OK, so you can't you started building up cohorts and you I'm sure also there was like you could see a path to some sort of growth in, in the energizing habits cohort building. She's like, OK, I feel good about and like confident about the the trajectory that that's on. Exactly. There was I found product market fit within the cohorts like, oh, I'm getting amazing feedback.

It's growing. People are joining, people are interested in this. And then two at Spotify, I was already doing the workshops for about three years on the side like I mentioned, and they were like, oh, we want to take this to Amia, we want to take this to APAC, all these different places. And I felt, OK, well, if this big corporation wants to expand this around the globe and I keep filling these classes up at Spotify, there has to be other corporations similar that would also want this. For sure. And so is, is that what the cohorts were made of? They were made-up of other companies that were in the cohorts.

So first it was just doing the free workshops at Spotify. And then the cohorts were friends, so friends and like friends of friends. So basically the way started though the individual ones is I put together a business plan. I ran it by my brother who's an entrepreneur. And then it's like, what's the easiest way to get this started? Like I said, COVID just started. So it's like people want that virtual connection at the time. And I put together like 5 questions that I could ask people just like completely educational. I just want to learn to see if this has enough interest that people would really pay for this.

So I basically reached out to like all my different friends that I feel like we're really about growth and community. And I would call them be like, can I ask a couple of questions? And then naturally you're going to get the people are like, I want you to update me on your progress. If you ever create this, I want to be a part of it because when you're asking people these questions, they're helping shape something too. So they're also like part of the building process. So then I would follow up with them and kind of do rounds and like create wait lists and whatnot.

So that's how I would create the original cohorts and then I went after the corporations once I could leverage e-mail. Got it, got it, got it. OK, so a. Kind of a question on that, maybe it's it's nitty gritty, but like I've often heard from people who are describing like a similar thing, like I want to go start something so I'm going to call and ask questions to who my ideal customer would be. And I would imagine it was a lot of people in your network already, right? It's like friends and family who who liked you, right? How did you navigate the, oh, like, that's really cool and kind of your friends that are naturally going to support you, but then when it came time to actually pay, maybe don't do that.

Does that make sense? Yeah. Well, I made sure to include a question like after going through the first, you know, 4 is how much would you be willing to pay for a group like this? So they would know there was a cost associated and they were already telling me how much they would pay and then also asking them do you want me to? And most would throughout the process be like please update me. But if not, do you want me to keep you updated? Do you want me to like when it is time to roll out the community for the founding members? Do you want me to let you know, basically?

Got it. Got it, Got it. OK. So you're ready putting in their mind that there is costs associated. And then another way to frame costs that I would do is I've spoken to mentors of mine who say that they I should charge $500 a month for this. But for the founding members, I'm thinking I'm going to charge $200 a month. What do you think? Do you think that's fair? Like, do you think that's a good price? Because again, you're anchoring this has high value, but you would get a special deal for being a founding member of it. And then while you're talking to your friends and family, which is what I would do for all my friends is like, who else do you recommend I should speak to?

Is there anyone else who comes to mind? And then that way you're getting people who are not just in your immediate network, but they're, you know, 1° away, right, right. Man, that's amazing. And So what was the wall that you hit before you were like, OK, I need to go because you, you mentioned like you got into corporations after adding in the e-mail component. So what was the wall that you went that you hit before? You're like, oh, shoot, I need to add some sort of new channels. Yeah, 4. I had created 5 cohorts, so 5 different groups that we're paying.

So I started with like just $100 a month per member. And then my last cohort was about $500 a month per member. But I felt if I keep doing this, like I'm going to hit my, my ceiling pretty quickly. And if I could speak to bigger groups at corporations, then I could. I like to do both. I also felt like the why it was I'm very persistent and I was annoying everybody close to me. I'm like, I can't be annoying my friends this much all the time. You know, like everybody I would meet, which is something that now that I have e-mail marketing, I'm just like, I'm so glad I don't have to annoy every single person I know, 'cause it's like if I met you randomly out, it's like, oh, can I ask you some questions?

We have a call. I want your opinion on my cohorts. You can eventually become a member. Tell me more members or just like my friends who loved it and I'm like, give me more referrals, more referrals. You know, it's like eventually you're annoying the shit out of out of everybody. Stop doing it. For sure, for sure. So that was like a major wall where I'm like, I need to go cold and talk to people who are not in my network and not have to like think of every person in the world as a prospect in my that I meet personally. That makes sense. That makes sense.

You've mentioned a couple times like mentors and business coach. I think you mentioned in in in the beginning, how do you think about those things? So how do you think about mentors? How do you think about business coaches? And like, where do you draw the line of of this is worth it versus not into it? Mostly for business coach, less so mentors because I think everyone agrees mentors are good. Yeah, is I've always been willing to invest in coaches. That's been like a big thing for me. I think with business coaches, it's someone who's been where you have been and is like 2 steps ahead of you.

Like they have more success than you, but they're not like too far away from you. Where it's almost. Their advice is now unrelatable to what you're going through 'cause I have mentors that I've met along the way. Who, you know, have really massive businesses, they're doing 10s of millions of dollars every year. But it's like their advice wasn't relevant to me because they're too far away from like where I was as just starting out versus my business coach was just a few steps ahead where they have like built a successful business, but they're not doing again, 10s of millions in revenue at that time.

They weren't doing that yet. So they could really get in like the weeds with me. And I think that's really important is like anybody can turn on a podcast and listen to advice, but do you have someone who can like really drill down and be in the weeds with you on a very specific problem to help you get through that? So if you were, if you were starting over today in 2026 and you have the same mentality of like, I want to invest in coaches, how do you start? How do you find one? Like how do you go through that process? So my business coach wasn't even a business coach.

I just knew him. Like I knew that he was an entrepreneur. He sold a company, he was building a new company. And I was like, I would love to pay you as a business coach if you're up for it, like if you're willing to help me grow. So I think sometimes it's even just thinking about like who's in your network, who's someone who you admire, who could be a mentor, but you want more of their time. You want to meet with them once or twice a week and like asking them, could I please pay you for this? I would really appreciate if you coach me. And like, you don't have to answer this.

You don't want, but I'm curious like, how do you determine like what to offer for their time, right, 'cause like imagine what they're you're hopefully to get from them is extremely valuable. But also like if you're starting out, maybe you don't have a ton of money. So how do you, how does that work? Yeah, I asked them, like, what they would charge. And they came back with a fair price. Like, it wasn't like this extravagant price. I think if someone's naturally ready a mentor, they're not really going to charge you. Like some of the business coaches today charged crazy prices.

You know, it's like they're always kind of trying to maximize their dollar, which I completely understand. But of course, the value needs to be there where I think someone who's a mentor, who genuinely wants to help young founders, where new founders grow, they're going to be more fair with it. And then I, I believe what you spend on like growing is always going to come back to you. Have you, have you found that to be true? Yeah, 100%. It's how I even feel about marketing. It's like, have you ever heard of like there's a story about a guy, I might have said it at the workshop, maybe I haven't, but this isn't essentially how I view all effort in life.

So there's a story, story of this man who is very poor and he dreams of having this big beautiful home. And so God comes to him one night and he's like, I'm going to give you this home. But there's one condition. There's going to be a massive rock in front of the home. And every day you have to use your Max effort to push the rock. And then one day I will move the rock. So it's not up to you to move it, just push it. So the guy gets to the beautiful home. He's like, Oh my God, this place is so amazing, better than I imagined. I don't even care to ever leave it.

And of course I'm going to push the rock with full effort. So a week passes by, rock hasn't moved at all. Two weeks passed by, rock hasn't moved at all. So each week he starts to lessen the effort and then eventually he just stops pushing all together because he hasn't seen the rock move. And then he dies in the home. He goes to heaven and God, he says to God, why didn't you ever move the rock? And God's like all I asked you to do was like push the rock with Max effort, but you stop pushing. So I can never move it. And that's how I think about effort.

Obviously be smart with it. But like if you give your mass effort, which means investing past, maybe it's you know, it's a little uncomfortable. Eventually good things are going to happen in your life, like things are going to line up. But if I'm so focused on the value that I get from each individual coaching session or this specific thing that I'm doing, I'm kind of losing sight of like the bigger picture, which is just giving my all. It's a really. Cool. Story. I hadn't heard that story before. Yeah, it's my favorite. I think about it everyday.

It's like doing follow-ups with people, you know, it's like no one likes to do follow-ups, but it's like, well, I'm going to give it by all, and maybe this person will never answer me, but then I'm going to get a few inbounds one week. Or like, even the workshop, it's like, oh, I didn't know if I was going to get any clients from it, but if I show up, I can get my all and I try something different. Like eventually, eventually that effort's going to come back to me. Yeah, totally. Well, also, like, it can't hurt, right? Like there's no downside to it.

Yeah. And if sometimes you get paired up with a coach and it just doesn't feel right and you're like, I don't like this at all and it's OK. Just stop doing it. You know, like you weren't with those with those coaches. Would you set like like, hey, I would like to love to hire you and pay you for your time for AB and C And then with the understanding of like, hopefully we we can achieve this within a 2 month period or whatever. Like, do you set those like specific parameters beforehand? Yeah, it would definitely be specific things that I wanted to work on and I think that's important too.

It's like you're going to get out of a session what you give and So what do you actually like? The coach isn't going to, can't really direct you if you're not giving them anything. So I'd be very explicit with what I needed help with. But then I think timelines is always a difficult thing because it took me 6 months to get my first sale through Kohl's e-mail. But what the six months taught me was a lot. It's like it taught me who my ideal buyer was. It taught me that I knew how to sell at a big corporation, but I didn't know how to sell through colds e-mail.

And it's like along the way you're going to uncover all the things you actually need help on in order to achieve your goal. That makes sense. You, you mentioned earlier that you're, you're driven by like the potential for growth is that, is that the pure driver? Like are, are, are you like, do you think about money in the sense of like, oh, that is the goal too? Or is it, is it more so like solving problems and optimizing for growth? Yeah, I of course everybody wants money. But I think if you become the person who can attract more money and like is worth receiving more money in a way 'cause your skill sets are higher, like that's always going to take care of itself at Spotify.

Because I graduated early from college to start working for Spotify and like, I was the lowest paid employee by far. I had, they like pulled the stats. I was doing 3 times more work than the second busiest employee at the company. And for three years, basically, that's the way that my life went. And it was like to the point where as you almost quit, I was so frustrated by it. But then when I got promoted and this amazing opportunity opened where I could become a seller at like 23, which by the time like the youngest seller other than that was around 33.

So just got in at like, like, you know, it just opened for me and my salary quadrupled within a year. And I think that's the same thing with work. It's like you might not see the results for a few years, but eventually when you're ready, if you just continue driving, growing and learning, you will attract more and you will keep attracting more. And the times leaving Spotify to go do my own company and then go to startup was so challenging, mainly because of money too. Like, oh, I was getting paid. A lot at Spotify at such a young age and I have these all these perks and then now I'm going to go do my own thing.

I'm not going to pay myself. I'm going to invest it all in my company. Then I'm going to go build a startup, get paid way less. And it's like you have to. When you focus on that, I have found you become way worse at what you do and you're just always unhappy versus when I let that go, when it finally hit me like you're always gonna be fine, you always have been fined. Money always comes to you like you naturally just start attracting more of it when you're more focused on the growth element and you enjoy work a lot more. I don't know if if you've have ever felt that, but I feel when I start counting money or focusing too much on money, it makes me not like my job as much as when I focus on my clients and like truly wanting them to succeed and then me just expanding and growing.

Totally. Yeah, totally. I think also the opposite is true too. Like I've, I've like there's never been a point where money has felt anywhere close to the feeling that I associated with it in my head before getting it. Like any bonuses or any raises. Like it's never, it's of course nice, right. But like, it's never been like that was totally worth all of the mental bandwidth that I associated with in the 1st place. And so I've never like sold the company or anything, but I can imagine it's to a different degree, maybe like a similar, a similar thought process.

Yeah. It's like you always want more of it because there's always something else that you can get with it, but it kind of just like it ruins the enjoyment of the the process along the way. And I think sometimes when I my mind, because my mind naturally is always thinking of what I can do better and more that I can achieve when I'm like, OK, but maybe I don't even, you know, like I don't know what my life is going to be like at that point. But right now I know that I have all these other blessings in my life that money can't put a price on. And so like, maybe I shouldn't actually rush to that and I should just fully enjoy now and giving it my all and pushing the rock.

It's like, oh, now I feel high on life. Yeah, just by changing that. And that's also like probably said, it's, I think this is also the point you're making is like by doing that, you're going to do so much better at your job and therefore, like probably make more money in the long run. Yeah, 100%. Like I was the worst at my job anytime I was focused on money, like coming to the startup, the times where the founders are like you're just not showing up as yourself. Like this isn't like the Gabby that we know. And it was that like focusing on what I can get.

And then when I really made a switch of like, I don't really care about all my wants right now. I just care about the company succeeding and clients succeeding. That's all of a sudden everyday signing out of work. I'm like, Oh, I love my job. And that was the only switch. Man, that's awesome. So what, what is because you, you mentioned at the workshop like you're obviously an insanely hard worker and it makes sense that you love what you do, but like, what is it? What does a typical day look like? Like when do you start? You know, what are you doing in the morning and afternoon evenings?

Like when you done like what does your day look like? Yeah, it it definitely varies, but for the most part, I will get up, go to the gym, I'll wake up around like 5, go to the gym, workout sauna, you know, all the Austin stuff that everyone loves, walk my dog and then yeah, get ready and start the day. I definitely want to start by I'm like Spotify me would be in there at like 7 AMI don't know how I did that. I'm like, I just didn't have a dog back then or something that I had to walk 'cause now I'm like, it takes me so long in the morning. But yeah, by the time it hits 8 or like 830, I like to be at my desk answering emails.

And then usually I'm on calls from like 9:30 to 5:00-ish or like 4. And then yeah, sometimes I'll work until 9:00. But usually I try and work up, wrap up around like 630 ish, 637, OK, take the dog out, you know for sure. And and let's, let's talk about EOC a little bit. So like you mentioned at the beginning that you were their second client, but what is it exactly they do? And like what is the how, how and why are they so valuable? Yeah, so they do e-mail marketing. So essentially connecting e-mail is all about connecting two people together, no matter what the industry is.

We'll reach out to their, their ICP, their target buyer and get them on more meetings with them. So getting the more leads. And then we also do LinkedIn marketing as well, similar, really setting up those meetings for them, just through a different channel. The reason they are so valuable is they're definitely even a lot more valuable today because e-mail marketing has become a million times harder from 5 1/2 years ago. Like back in the day, you could just get an inbox, a decent list and have really good copy and you would get a ton of meetings.

Where now with the rise in AI, trust has really decreased. So like we're a lot more skeptical. We don't trust as much. A lot more people think they can do it on their own. And therefore e-mail providers like a Google or an Outlook are getting a lot stricter. So there's an A lot more technicality behind e-mail marketing in terms of making it work. And you just have to, I mean, you need a full team constantly looking at every piece of the puzzle in order to make sure that you get on these high quality calls and then also help convert them after. Got it.

OK. And so can you walk through an example like, let's take, I don't know, a services business. So someone who your cohort, if you can like it just kind of walk through like what that would look like from the energizing habits perspective, like just a real world example. Yeah. So with and I think this is important. It's like deal sizes life, the cohort where they're paying, you know, at at my highest cohort level, like once the five group, fifth group was created and then I focused on corporate when it comes to the individuals in the cohorts, I wouldn't use e-mail for that because the deal size is a bit too small for corporate clients.

It makes more sense like e-mail is really for high value, hard to reach people. So if you want, it's more like B to B or B to B deal sizes, meaning like land. If you're selling a plot of land, of course that's B to C, but it's AB to B deal size because it's six figures. Got it. Deal sizes don't need to be 6 figures, you know, but like lifetime value of a customer should be around $10,000 for e-mail, specifically LinkedIn, it can be less because Linkedin's a lot less expensive, but the way it would work for for setting up an energizing habits campaign, I don't know how like details you want me to go start start going the most detailed, but if it's too much, I'll stop you.

OK, perfect. OK. Well first just even like onboarding wise, we would really need to figure out what is your value proposition, what makes you different? What are people in the your target market actually interested in like how do we speak to these people and what is relevant to them today? Are they working with competitors? Are there influencers in the space that they know of? Are they going to certain events, like what's relevant to them? That also connects to your value proposition. So you can, you know, if you're just coming out of left field today and pitching them something totally off base, it's probably not going to land, you're probably not going to get a response response from them.

So that's baseline, just like what's your value proposition and how do we create relevance and trust with your ideal buyer? Behind the scenes, we are building infrastructure, so we're setting up all of these domains on your behalf and warming those up. And then someone's full time job is just managing deliverability. So like Energizing Habits, I would have 200 inboxes on my behalf that we would be sending from. And, and you were explaining this at the workshop, but I actually didn't fully understand. So this is like a for energizing habits. It would be like the the inbox, like hello, energizing Habits, high at Energizing Habits, but 200 of those exactly.

Well, there would be about 50 different variations. And then in terms of like those would be the domains. And then inboxes could be like Gabby R, Gabby Rosen, G Rosen. So like you could change your name formatting as well. Got it, got it, got it. OK. And then what was the process of warming them up? Yeah, so inboxes need about three weeks to warm up, meaning that they're talking to other warm up inboxes and they're mimicking regular human sending. So like as if I was emailing you like, hey, it's so good to see you. What are you having for lunch later?

And then you're responding from a warm up e-mail, like, yeah, so good to see you too. I'm having a burger. Like that's how they kind of talk to each other and that's maturing your infrastructure. So it has good reputation. So these ES PS understand that you're not setting up inboxes and blasting out and ESP is like a Google or a like a Gmail like whoever the e-mail provider is exactly a Yahoo Gmail Outlook. OK, OK, got it. So if you don't do the warm up process, what happens? They just won't succeed. You'll never go into the inbox really. So like again, a few years back before the rise in AI, what you used to be able to do is stand up a single inbox.

So like if a client was struggling with meetings, I, I miss these days, I could stand up a single inbox, get a massive list of like 10,000 people blasted out and then get you like 80 meetings from it. And they would shut down your inbox eventually. But in the meantime, like it would take Gmail a few days to understand that you were like sending out a mass cold e-mail. But today they have so much like their rules are much more strict. So you can't do that. Like if you were to do something like that today without warm up, you would you wouldn't land in the inbox.

Would it just go straight to spam or it just wouldn't send? Yeah, I would likely go to spam and then they could block list that domain. So it just might not be getting through in general to that inbox. Got it. Got it, Got it. OK. One thing to know is you can have like additional security gateways on top of that. So like a really big corporation might add in additional security gateways that makes it even harder to land in the inbox. Got it. OK, OK. So once you've warmed up the, the, the subdomains, then then you start blasting out the copy and the, the things that you talked about kind of in step one.

Well, first you want to start sending a very low volume, so maybe only like an e-mail a day per inbox. And you want someone who's managing that because you want to change the amount you're sending and then the times you're sending and the time gaps in between sending emails on a daily basis. And then you want to create a really high quality list. So like I mentioned this at the workshop, but if you're using like an Apollo or Zoom info, even if they say verified leads, a lot of times they really aren't verified, especially today because those companies have a lot of competition and very small margins today.

So they need to maximize those as much as possible. So like as much as 50% of their data could be bad. So if you are going to use a data source, sorry, go ahead. Well, I was going to say so. So what's the solution? Like how do you find a good list? 1 You really, if you do use a data source like that, you want to triple verify it through like a 0 bounce a million verifier. There are plenty out there. We use three tools to verify. So that's one way to get rid of all the bad emails. But then we also will manually scrape. Like if you use LinkedIn as your data source, then that's good.

LinkedIn has pretty clean data source, but you still will need to enrich those names and companies with emails through a tool like Clay and then triple verify that. Got it. Because LinkedIn tells you this person is real but doesn't give you their e-mail necessarily. Yeah, exactly. Got it. Got it, Got it. OK. Like you should be able to know where that person is working because you know you have that work history. So you should be able to see current company and then their name and then you could just enrich through a tool like Clay and that matches up if you says you work at Amazon and LinkedIn your name at in Amazon's naming conventions and it just puts them together.

I don't really know the way that like how they do it behind the scenes when it comes to the company emails. But yeah, I just know we enriched through clay because I don't really do the list building, but I know how the process works. Gotcha, gotcha. OK, OK. So then you build, you build this clean list and then you're you're sending out low volume emails from all your subdomains and then just increasing that over time. Exactly. And you always want to stay really like sub 10 emails really we like to stay between 1:00 to 5:00. But basically you should keep volumes low for your first month and make sure you're getting at least a 1% reply rate, not including out of offices and then 10% positive reply rate.

That would show that your list is good and your copy is good and you have strong deliverability. And then from there you can start adding more volume. And so let's say you send out 100 emails. You should get your response rates. You should get at least one response from that. Well, that doesn't work. So let's say you send 1000 emails. You should get at least 100 responses back. Of those, 110 should be positive. 1% of 1000 would be yeah. 12:50 So really you should be able to get one meeting from the 1000 contacts you're sending to. Got it. Got it.

Got it. OK, OK. That's a floor number, yeah, that's floor. But so if you're doing well in cold e-mail, you have a product that people are interested in, that should be your floor, There's ways to increase that, like local outreach will definitely increase that. When you're reaching out to people like with an Austin, for example, then there's already more of that trust factor. It's like, oh, we live in the same city, you'll get more responses. Sure. OK, man, that's nuts. And so that's just, it's just building the engines and infrastructure like you said, and then having someone to manage all that set up and then the process itself.

Yeah, exactly 'cause you, we have someone who's full time job is deliverability. We have a few people who do list building. We have a few people who do copy. There's about three people who will oversee the copy for every single client before that copy goes out. But then there's like multiple people who do that, like first pass who have specific accounts. And then I do more of the campaign management. So working with the customers, drilling in, finding any gas, always finding ways that we can improve. Yeah, you just need a lot of different skill sets in order to make cold e-mail work today.

And they're very different skill sets, which is why it's best to have different people doing that. And then of course, you need someone who's looking at everything and seeing is the ESP making changes, is it client specific, etcetera. Man, that's wild. Yeah, it's pretty, that's when people are like, I think I figured out Kohl's e-mail. Like I had a friend. She's like came, we went for like an early workout and she's like, I'm so excited. I figured out how to do Kohl's e-mail. I spent all day in Apollo and I'm like, that's so you know, I didn't want to like say you definitely haven't.

I'm just like, that's so exciting. Like tell me what you learned. And I'm like, how many inboxes did you set up? She's like one. I'm like, Oh no, you need this. And like, I just kept asking her and eventually 5 questions later, she's like, I'm not doing it. Yeah. Even just like the like the warm up thing that kind of blew my mind because I, I, I didn't know. I know that's, that's it. Like, I mean, I told you before we hopped on the call, like I'm not, I suck at marketing. So like you don't know what you don't know, but it's all the stuff is like, I didn't know.

Yeah. And then people think like, I feel like today we kind of make AI like a superpower. Like AI cannot be wrong sort of thing. Like I just had a call with a guy who's using a lot of AI and I'm like, how are your response rates? How is this? How is that? And it's like, you know, someone's like, I'm doing great. But when you really dig in, it's like, oh, you're actually not getting any responses. And this whole call, he's like, you know, I think I was just going to replace you guys. And it's like, yeah, I kind of wish it could replace more of e-mail, but like AI kind of knows nothing about e-mail when you type in 'cause I'll always test it.

And it's very helpful with automation if you have a lot of data and you're feeding it into that. But a lot of the advice it's going to give you is like advice that worked a few years ago but it doesn't work today because these ES PS are changing quicker than any AI understands. Got it. So it is very complex, man. What what does like if someone's listening to this to like, like, what what are you looking for right now? Like what would be helpful to you and your business if someone's listening and they're like, oh man, like Gabby's awesome. I want to help her out.

I want to do something like what what are you, what are you looking for? Yeah, in terms of like tools or just skill sets? Tools, skill sets, yeah. Anything that would be helpful. Yeah. I mean, eventually would definitely like someone else who like can also look at. We have the Co founder who's amazing at like making sense of all the data, but I think eventually I would love someone who like really digs in with me on client calls and is able to take some of those clients as well. And like I trust them to really pay good and close attention to them and be able to always improve their results.

Because that's ultimately the goal of all of this is like, I just want my clients to get on more meetings and close more revenue. Yeah. And then such a talk about like value add, right? Like as your pitch is pretty easy, like, hey, do you want more money? Because you should use us. Yeah, 100%. There's so many typically on calls. So it's more I focus on meetings because your clients are going to differ so much in terms of how much revenue they close based on their sales skills. I feel like sales is such a touchy subject because everybody doesn't think that they have a problem with it.

But like, I work with really big companies and you dig into their sales process and it's like. You had a meeting with this person and you followed up once like today with calls and sales in general. So like I used to have a lot of one call closes back in the day. It's like you speak to somebody, you have good energy and you close them right on that first call. Majority of my energizing habits came from one call closes. But in my the Co founder who did sales before, same thing is like a lot of one call closes. But I think that really shifted come like January, February, because the trust has gone down a lot.

It's like, can I do this through AI? Is there someone out there cheaper than you? You know, the people have a much harder time making decisions today and that impacts everybody's sales. And so one of my favorite ways to leverage e-mail is actually even like post call where you have this follow up engine that just goes and you're constantly speaking to that person that you spoke to, to really get them from. I'm interested to, OK, now I'm putting you on the fence. And now I'm like literally kicking you over the fence and you're going to work with me because I know this would be good for you.

But it's really like what it takes today. I would say all of my sales over the last few months have come from doing that. The follow up engine that comes after a great call. So I never promised revenue. It's like this is your best shot because we'll get you more meetings, but it's really going to be up to you and how persistent you are, how much you leverage us and how much you're also willing to learn about how do you have conversations with people through cold outreach? Totally, totally. And that's probably smarter too, because you're, you can, you can control meetings.

You can't necessarily control, like you said, Closings. And to a certain extent, some clients get a ton of meetings, others don't get as many. Like there's who are you pitching into? You know, what's your value proposition? Is it interesting enough? Like there's really niche companies we work with that do like somebody who just started working, working with us a few months ago. He does SEO for hunting brands. It's very niche, but he kills it. There's so much interest in IT versus like a cyber security company. I would say leverage LinkedIn over e-mail because you have more of that trust factor.

Or like if you're pitching into financial services, it's going to take more touches, You're going to have to follow up more, you're going to have to have better copy. So it's so dependent on the industry too. But now that we've worked with over 200 clients, it's like I have more of that insight that I can share with people and never over promise. Like I think that's a, a thing where you're like, yeah, it's such an easy value proposition. But for me, I, there's so many companies out there that just over promise. Oh, we're going to get you 100 leads, 10 leads, 20 leads.

It's like, I'm just going to give you the floor numbers all the time. I'm never going to over promise because I'm going to be there with you along the way. And if I over promise, you're just going to be disappointed. I'm going to set you up to fail rather than being realistic and you being able to get the most out of the partnership and the money that you're spending and ultimately like achieve the most through under promising. So yeah, that's one thing I don't do. And then, yeah, people are always, you know, price is a big thing and if you there's so many low quality companies out there that do we Gen.

And I think it's like the biggest mistake. But if I speak to prospects and they end up going with a a lower cost option, I feel like, oh, that that kind of sucks for you because you're going to waste so much time and then you're going to figure it out. But for us it's great because when that happens, they end up coming back three months later and then they never leave because they're like, I know what it was like to be on the other side. Totally. So yeah, those are all like the the main things when it comes to selling it. That's amazing. You guys rock.

You're a very, very amazing communicator. And yeah, that the workshop was amazing. And, and this was super helpful. Where, where can people find out more about you and, and the company and if they want to reach out or have questions? Yeah, if they want to reach out, they can reach out to gabigabi@eocworks.com and then our website isheyeocworks.com. OK, amazing. Yeah. We'll link to everything in the show notes. Man, Gabby, thank you so much for being here. I so appreciate you and all your knowledge and wisdom. So thank you. Yeah. Thank you for having me.

100%. All right, we'll see everybody next week. And bye everybody.